My Wife Wants an Open Marriage. I Don’t. Now What?

After 17 years of marriage (no kids), my wife told me she would like to open our marriage. This would mean allowing each other to sleep with other people. She says she has been doing a lot of reading about it and has a work friend who is in an open relationship and it works for her. I am outraged by the suggestion as I feel it is a major threat to our marriage. I love and value my wife way too much to allow her to have sex with other men. I know that I would be extremely jealous and could not handle it. She says it would be "just sex," we would make the rules in advance, no feelings involved. It sounds so simple but I am not sure that is how it works. My wife says she has thought about it a lot and she thinks she could handle me having intimate relations with another woman. She says the way she would approach it is with total honesty and communication to make sure everyone feels OK about it. She says that either one of us would have veto power. I don't want to sleep with other women, believe it or not. I don't want to have to wield veto power! I just don't get why she feels like she wants to do this. She says the idea would be to just "spice things up" and "keep things fresh" and that she thinks it could ultimately bring us closer together. We have a great sex life, which I think she would agree with. I'm so bewildered by this. I feel like my options are: (1) refuse to play along and hope she can respect that and stay happy and faithful; (2) pursue a divorce; (3) allow her to play outside the marriage while I stay true; or (4) both of us try it and hope for the best. Is couples therapy another option? I think I would find it humiliating to tell another person about this, and it might not even help anyway. —Open-Ended
Dear Open-Ended,

Thanks for your question. I can only imagine your bewilderment and confusion; things are humming along fine and suddenly, out of nowhere, your wife is asking you to play the “keys in the bowl” game from the 1970s. It sounds like you have a strong marital connection and are completely taken aback by the question, which is understandable. I would feel the same in your shoes.

Here is the key quote, far as I’m concerned: “She says it would be ‘just sex,’ we would make the rules in advance, no feelings involved. It sounds so simple but I am not sure that is how it works.” Frankly, I’m not sure that it works, period. To my mind there is no such thing as “just sex.” We westernized, Cartesian types seem to think we can neatly separate mind and body, but this is a conceptual fantasy that I think has to be done away with. Emotion is irreversibly intertwined with every facet of our being. Even being extremely intellectual has emotional overtones; lack of emotion (coldness, sternness, etc.) is itself an emotion or affect, as we say in psychology. This “no feelings involved” doesn’t make sense because clearly your wife is expressing some desire (i.e., a feeling) for a new sexual experience. The question is, why?

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Because of the intensely physical nature of sex, we tend to think of it as outside the spectrum of the day-to-day relationship—its own special category. I find, though, that the couples who relate together mate together. Sex is on a continuum that includes the mundane interactions of paying bills, housework, schedules, and so on. It puts too much pressure on a couple to have a somewhat routine existence drained of spontaneity and playfulness and then expect sparks in the bedroom. My hunch—from a distance, of course—is that your wife feels something is missing and wants to go outside the relationship to find it. Why is that? What is she not finding between the two of you that she needs to take such an emotional risk of bringing another partner into it? And it is a risk, no matter what anyone says. Sex involves desires that are unconscious, and the latter is always a wild card (which is part of sexuality’s exciting appeal). Of course, my attitude would be different if you were in favor, but you’re obviously strongly opposed.

Are there ways in which she can express some of those desires with you? Is she afraid of hurting your feelings by not saying something or making a request for something new? Is this request for openness a round-about way of expressing dissatisfaction? Are there ways you two can “shake things up” a bit in the romance and sex department? A weekend away, a dance class, a vacation, a little role play? Is there a part of her she wants to let out but is afraid? (Not to be cynical, but I almost wondered when I read your letter if she already had someone in mind.)

You might want to have a serious talk with your wife or even seek some couples counseling to help her understand how unhappy this idea is making you, and how rattled and bewildered you are in light of it. I think you owe it to yourself, and the marriage, to do all you can to try and seek together, rather than separately, a solution or compromise that allows you both to find satisfaction; you have that rare successful marriage that has endured for many years, and that is definitely worth protecting. It would be tragic for it to slip away due to lack of understanding or withheld feelings or desires. Thanks again for writing.

Best,
Darren

Darren Haber, PsyD, MFT is a psychotherapist specializing in treating alcoholism and drug addiction as well as co-occurring issues such as anxiety, depression, relationship concerns, secondary addictions (especially sex addiction), and trauma (both single-incident and repetitive). He works in a variety of modalities, primarily cognitive behavioral, spiritual/recovery-based, and psychodynamic. He is certified in eye movement desensitization and reprocessing (EMDR) therapy, and continues to receive psychodynamic training in treating relational trauma, including emotional abuse/neglect and physical and sexual abuse.
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  • veronica

    August 29th, 2014 at 1:19 PM

    This has always seemed to me a way for some marriages to get into serious trouble especially when one partner wants this type of relationship and the other does not. Tread carefully my friend

    Reply

  • the coopers

    February 2nd, 2016 at 11:03 PM

    Hi me and my wife have been married for 19 years and we started having a open marriage about 10 years ago and we still
    Love and respect each other but
    My question is my wife has a hard time talking about her fantasys or
    Sex in general we want to know if sex therapy would help her and me to talk and be more open with each other or would getting hipmatized would be a option and a better solution? Thank you for your help

    Reply

  • Damon

    October 26th, 2019 at 7:47 AM

    My wife and I have been in our open marriage for nearly 20 years and it was her idea to “enhance” our marriage. She has been with some women over the years but mainly younger men. She has several times help secure dates for me. She has always got very excited with me watching her make love to other men, which turns us both on. At 59 years old she is still a very beautiful and sexy woman, she claims that lots of sex helps women stay trim and happy. At 59 she regularly dates guys 20 years younger ! We both are glad that we made the move to “Open” and while I seem to be slower to acquire new lady friends, she has had at least 50 guys over a 20 year period! We have always been descrete and none of our local friends know. For us its been an exciting life!

  • AJ

    August 26th, 2019 at 8:32 PM

    She approaches him about open marriage. It’s my belief and experience from observing friends who’s wives have approached their husbands and boyfriends with this open relationship idea that very often they already have a man or men picked out and are usually already having sex with them. They are just tired of running around behind their husbands and boyfriends backs. Face it they are usually cheating already. So sad to think that today relationships are so in trouble. If he decides to disagree with her she’ll do it behind his back. Chances are she is already. Your words are so true… tread carefully.

    Reply

  • Chuck

    May 13th, 2020 at 5:47 AM

    You are absolutely correct and hit the nail on the head and he needs to hear this and stop being in denial and confront her. I would love to know how it finally played out. I have known three couples personally who decided to do the open marriage thing and all three are divorced today and each couple were already seeing someone when they wanted to try open marriage relationships.

  • AJ

    August 26th, 2019 at 8:33 PM

    She approaches him about open marriage. It’s my belief and experience from observing friends who’s wives have approached their husbands and boyfriends with this open relationship idea that very often they already have a man or men picked out and are usually already having sex with them. They are just tired of running around behind their husbands and boyfriends backs. Face it they are usually cheating already. So sad to think that today relationships are so in trouble. If he decides to disagree with her she’ll do it behind his back. Your words are so true… tread carefully.

    Reply

  • Ollie

    September 8th, 2019 at 8:28 PM

    My wife asked me for an open marriage after 21 years of marriage. I told her no, but she was insistent. I told her that there was no way it would work, because she couldn’t deal with me texting another woman, so I know she wouldn’t be able to handle me having sex with another woman. Come to find out, she wanted the open marriage to cover up her own infidelity. She eventually left me with all the indications of a walk away wife. She left a wake of destruction for me and our three kids. I am just now realizing that she has been cheating on me for the past 21 years. Once a cheater always a cheater. She is a pathological liar. I agree with one of the previous posts if you have been married for a while and your wife asks for an open marriage then she is probably already cheating on you.

    Reply

  • Lyndell

    August 30th, 2014 at 12:46 PM

    This is pretty dangerous territory if you ask me, particularly since you are not totally on board with the idea. We have this notion that a guy will always be open to a relationship like this but I think that some of the smarter ones like you see that this can be a real obstacle in even the strongest relationship.. I guess that this can work if both of you are into it and are on the same page with what you would like to get out of it but if you are not then I don’t think that it would be anything that I would suggest taking part in.

    Reply

  • hollis

    August 31st, 2014 at 7:41 AM

    I would be very scared if my husband came to me and wanted this if we had not always had this kidnd of relationship from the very beginning.
    I would definitely feel that I was not satisfying him in some way and that he was looking for another way to fulfill those needs but maybe trying not to hurt my feelings.

    Reply

  • Brennan

    August 31st, 2014 at 10:06 AM

    There has to be something that that she is not sharing with you but if she is not willing to tell you with just the two of you on your own then it could be time to try a mediator to help out. Anything that you can do to generate a conversation between the two of you would be helpful. It might not be the answers that you are looking for but knowing something is better than not understanding or knowing anything at all.

    Reply

  • consuela

    September 2nd, 2014 at 4:05 PM

    I am proud of you because I think that most men would be like hey okay that sh=ounds good to me! I think that you realize that this is not something that you wnat to be a part of and I applaud you for hopefully finding the strength to stand you ground.
    I am sure that there are some marriages that work out just fine with this sort of arrangement but I know that this is not something that I would ever want for me and I could not be with anyone either who thought that this would be the ideal situation for them.

    Reply

  • Luci

    September 3rd, 2014 at 4:13 PM

    hmmm I think that she has some serious explaining to do!

    Reply

  • revengine

    January 19th, 2017 at 6:03 PM

    Thanks for your advice, my wife says it’s the beleifs of her church, and it’s all in the bible. rev

    Reply

  • Lyle R.

    February 5th, 2017 at 10:05 PM

    And what church is that may I ask? My wife is having these same feelings of open marriage….

  • Cornelia v

    September 4th, 2014 at 2:59 PM

    Why does this have to be seen as only a negative thing? mY boyfriend and I have had a serious relationship with each other for years but always with the knowledge that if we wnated to sleep with another person at any point then there would be no judgement and no guilt. I don’t ask and neither does he and I know that we have both done it but I love him and he loves me and that’s all that matters. We are very strong together and I think that for the most part we have a loving and honest relationship with each other, sometimes better than the couples who say that they are monogamous but then around behind each others backs and have meaningless sex with strangers. ouyr relationship is different, I think that it is more open, and we never fight about it. For us it works, and I think that there are a lot of couples who would actually benefit from this set up.

    Reply

  • Kim

    June 12th, 2016 at 6:57 PM

    Hey Clausen, I was wondering if you were still on here, I would love to chat with you and ask some questions.

    Reply

  • Joseph

    July 8th, 2016 at 11:36 PM

    I agree with you. My wife and I have an open marriage and the only concerns we have is regarding our safety and health. That is why we have agreed to introduce each other’s lovers so that we can get to know them as people worthy of trust. My wife’s lovers have become some of my closest guy friends and I know that they will keep her from harm while giving her the most joy she can experience with them and the same goes for the women who are my lovers and my wife.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    July 9th, 2016 at 3:59 PM

    Joseph, does your marriage feel more solid to you and your wife with the support that sexual friendships with others provides? I ask because all that I find about life-long polyamory families points to much more marital security with the added intimacy of members who know each other as committed sexual friends. In one communal “family” the children who did not know their father have experienced two basic reactions as adults; the one was hurt and bitterness; the other is a simple appreciation for their communal parentage, rather than feeling deprived of a blood-father knowledge that our social structure demands. The two reactions appear to result from the responses to the communal life by their birth mothers, who raised each child. In one child’s case, the father was assumed, and the mother loves this man even as each is married to others.

    This point of fatherhood in your own case is the main reason I ask about your wife and you sharing other lovers. Condoms don’t always work. If you have a baby fathered by one of her lovers, can you love this child as your own, and will both yours and her lovers share the parenting as a caring family?

    I’m a widower with 42 years’ marriage experience with two wives. I have four children and their children, and their children. Hopefully I will have two or more ladies join me for a caring, strong polyamory family to be the parents, grand parents and great grandparents our children deserve. This is my main reason to follow this fascinating thread of honest sexual inquiry into a better and stronger form of sexual family relationships. Both of my marriage experiences where built on jealousy, and the more I discover about jealousy the more I see how it damages relationships, sex, and marriages.

  • Donald d

    November 22nd, 2017 at 9:11 AM

    We have a Open Marrage and we both love it,

  • Georgi

    July 23rd, 2016 at 4:49 PM

    I think you are absolutely right, a relationship has to be stronger to have such an agreement, but it’s a great agreement if it works for your happiness as a couple. Good job! .

    Reply

  • Gary

    February 5th, 2017 at 7:13 PM

    Get married and you may find yourself eating those words. Wife and kids are your life you don’t won’t anything or one coming between that

    Reply

  • LanaH102

    May 26th, 2017 at 1:52 AM

    There are couples who so desperately want to succeed in their new venture of having an open relationship that they try to sell their choice like a product and offer to others that this lifestyle is a healthy way to remain married. It is obvious to a relationship expert such as myself that they are trying to force themselves to believe the choice they made is healthy by advertising it to others in a desperate attempt to be validated. of

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    May 26th, 2017 at 1:25 PM

    Dear LanaH,
    Here’s why I won’t recommend you for relationship counsel: you’ve skipped over the testimonies from satisfied couples with non-monogamous sexual intercourse who lovingly include their spouse in full agreement with all sexual activity beyond their committed companionship.

    Doing this indicates that you advise people based on your individual bias, not on others’ needs where reliable counselors must advise from with the fullest details possible.

    There are satisfied swingers here and other places online who share their mutual love for sex with other committed lovers that apparently your bias ignores. Do go deeper into this before making blanket judgement.

    Thank you!

  • Jim

    May 27th, 2017 at 6:04 PM

    ClaudeA: Your remarks are easily as biased as any that Lana has made. Your insistence that open marriage is the ‘right way’ is No more correct than an opinion of Monogamy being the best course. Every couple is different and to suggest that Lana is not enlightened because of your bias is ridiculous. Tolerance works both ways.

  • Jamie

    July 5th, 2019 at 2:38 AM

    Both groups try to validate their format-the monogamous as well as the non-monogamous. It’s made to seem that all non-monogamous married couples aren’t ‘truly’ happy and need validation by peddling their format, which isn’t true. If that were true, then the same could be said for monogamous married couples. Non-monogamy works for some folks, but not for others. That’s true the other way around. Just let people do what works for them.

  • drabbit

    September 22nd, 2014 at 10:45 AM

    Chances are something is already going on.

    Reply

  • LanaH102

    May 31st, 2017 at 2:04 AM

    Claudia, I failed in my haste to qualify the comment. It is not my view but a cut and paste of a comment from another site that i had read. It was more of a #Just Saying piece. But the follow up comments are rather precise. You and everyone who agrees with you is right and all others are wrong.
    Your Welcom

    Reply

  • Michelle

    September 25th, 2014 at 8:25 AM

    You have been married for 17 years and she has been reading about it and her friend does it as well and seems to work for her? I tell you, what she has been reading; it’s the Bible. Idk if you have Christian beliefs or whatnot. I will say that God intended for one man and one woman to be united through him in marriage. That is the utmost sign of love and devotion to tie the knot for most people. Sex should be the the ultimate way to show that love and devotion to your spouse or significant other…not tread dangerous grounds and explore and be with other people. Rules, times, promises to do this and that and deadline is not part of being married. I’m sure your wife loves you and I will tell you this. I love the man I’m with. The thought of me being with anyone else just devastates him as well as would devastate me. You are the man and do not go along with this. You two are married. You two aren’t just dating. I’m hoping that maybe she is testing you to see how long she can push you…some people play mind games to make sure that she is the only one that turns you on always and forever. You don’t watch porn do you and she found out? I sure hope that isn’t the case. That’s a different story and has hurt a lot of women and even men.
    You are the man. You stand by your beliefs and be strong. You should not let another man have the opportunity to be with your wife and “allow” this to happen if you truly love her and especially since you two are married!!! Ask her to recite her “vows” to you. Ask her if she still feels the same about them! Never, ever let another person invade what you two have made together for whatever reason. That is the devil! Keep him away from you and your wife as a man. If she still says she wants to do this, do not participate. This isn’t you…you sound like an awesome man and many women would dream of a man like you. I happen to have an awesome man and he would just vomit with the thought of that. Stand your ground…you are the leader as God intended and do not give in to this cuz if anything…this will definitely ruin your marriage in the long run. You don’t want to lose her? It will happen. Sex can eventually turn into love and feelings, especially if she’s messing with the same man. It will happen. Even if you two agree and choose who. Please be strong and you are in my prayers. Physical intimacy is the worst betrayal you can have in a relationship. Consent or no consent.
    Sorry some may not agree with me…if you would know me and see me you would.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    June 13th, 2016 at 4:38 AM

    Michelle,
    The reality of the statement that you make about Christians and Bible and God all agreeing that monogamy is THE way is funny on several counts, but let’s just focus on the Bible part. Please, since you assume the Bible says what you say it does, point to ALL the references about marital blessing by God for ALL the many marital situations the Bible includes, not merely the ones you decide are “biblical.” I think rational people can see the fallacy of the statement your words here appear to make, and if you desire to promote your beliefs as the onlky valid ones for ALL other people, then at least do so with good integrity of your resource material,

    I have a fair knowledge of marital records in the original Hebrew Scriptures that the writers of the Bible claim they translated accurately, but failed miserably to do so, and the One Who says He inspired ALL His Word plainly makes no preference for the marriage arrangements we people choose, but for one single thing that so far as I know, nobody keeps perfectly.

    This fundamental requirement for marriage is Truth. The marriage that practices absolute truth on the parts of all involved is the only marriage that meets Creator’s marital requirements. In Christian monogamy marriage, the sole reason it exists is jealousy. The jealousy that hurts, is possessive, and worse, controlling of another. Find me any monogamy couple that is without any controlling jealousy and possessiveness.

    You can save your time: There isn’t one.

    Another sad twist Christians make on their much maligned Bible is that it clearly details parental blood lines that follow the mother, not the father. Christians follow paternal bloodlines, as sociopath anomaly that causes untold misery in today’s lethal broken family syndrome. If our society followed maternal bloodline, then all the legal hassles of parental rights would be eliminated, as the name of the child would include the mother’s maiden name as the child’s rightful line of family order.

    Just be clear on the resource for your own best interests. Please.

    Reply

  • Kim

    June 13th, 2016 at 7:48 PM

    How are things working with you and your wife?

  • Kit

    September 9th, 2016 at 1:04 AM

    Making such a blanketed statement about Monogamous relationships just makes you seem like a non monogamous bigot. I could easily say the reason Non-Monogamous relationships exist is because people don’t want to truly devote and don’t themselves to their partner nor do they really love them, and that they just want to chase the high amounts of dopamine that come with fucking other people. Everyone has their own path don’t judge someones elses just because it doesn’t work for you.

  • Darren Haber MFT

    September 25th, 2014 at 2:10 PM

    Just wanted to thank everyone here for their thoughtful comments. I like all points, including Michelle’s example about how sex within a committed relationship can become more loving. Emotions really can change when a commitment is kept consistent over time, rather than looking to outside “fixes” for inside dilemmas or obstacles. I’m not saying this from a moral standpoint; unless kids are involved, it’s between two consenting adults. But I do think it a risky precedent to start looking for external remedies or emotional band-aids when the issue is really a problem that can be solved within the relationship. And be careful what you wish for: any relationship, inside or outside a marriage, comes with its own risks and potential for complications — since, after all, another human being is involved! (I can’t tell you how much complicated and painful extra-marital activity begins with the best intentions to “keep it simple and pressure-free” etc.

    Reply

  • jerry

    February 18th, 2015 at 9:58 PM

    My wife of 15 years has hit me with the same bombshell. I have told her how i feel about it and how the fact that she wants it actually hurts me. She also wants to have threesomes without me. We are going to marraige counciling but so far she is still saying that she wants it. I dont know what to do. I have asked her if its something that is missing in our relationship and she says no. She says that it is a fantasy of hers and the things that she wants to do would ruin her image of me so she wont even tell me what they are. She says that she loves me and has absolutly no intention of leaving me. She says that she wants to grow old with me but at this point in her life there are experiences that she wants to have and her mind is set on doing them even if it means losing me. I dont want to lose her. This whole thing is killing me but not being with her anymore would be worse. Im actually thinking of just letting her do it and hope that she gets it out of her system soon. If i tell her no she will do it anyways. My only options are to put up with it or divorce her. I cant live without her but im afraid that this will kill me anyways.

    Reply

  • chris

    February 21st, 2015 at 11:57 PM

    I know what you are going through jerry my wife of 14 years is on a dating site and wants to have an affair Iam so confused adopt it it just kills me seeing her chatting with other men on her phone but I feel your pain I don’t know how to handle it in fear of losing her I just suck it up I guess but it still hurts

    Reply

  • Roger

    December 13th, 2017 at 12:09 PM

    My wife and I are mid thirties and she has brought up the possibility of open marriage for her only ! Since we married she has stayed the same weight and still a knockout but I have put on some pounds and the sex drive has slowed. Men are always coming on to her and she eats it up. She feels that life is passing her up and she loves all the attention of the men. She is adamant about the open marriage and her dating. I am willing to let her date and am hoping she will lose interest in that lifestyle. I am afraid but she has made it clear that she will date at least once a week and I should be cordial to her “friends” when they come to our home to pick her up.

  • Georgi

    July 23rd, 2016 at 5:06 PM

    I am not sure how old you so are, but women have been taught to be “nice girls” and not have as many partners add perhaps they would have liked before they got married. There maybe a dissatisfaction with that aspect of her life and not necessarily with you as her sexual partner. You may want to ask her…
    Have does it make you feel to think of her being with someone else? Have you allowed yourself to just think of her as a satisfied woman and using that to be a turn on to you, or to you both? In a marriage you must be willing to grow together, and that died not mean only in an intellectual way, but also sexually. Perhaps, your sexual repertoire is good, but she wants to get outside the box, and you are too afraid to go there with her. Trust, you may discover a completely new side to you, to her, and to both of you together.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    July 24th, 2016 at 5:03 AM

    Georgi, Your loving statement makes good sense to me! The one thing we hubbies have to give you precious wives is our confidence in your choice to be our wives! Read the comment Alex left here March 31st, 2015! Her adoration and sexual excitement with her hubby’s confidence in her love for him as she was given his blessing to go “fuck” other men reflects what us boys just cannot get our heads around, you girls are first care-givers, then sexually craving us inside you! Us men FIRST see our penis’ pleasure, and assume that this genital-first focus is you ladies’ sexual order of desires, too.

    WRONG!

    So, IF we husbands TRUST you wives’ sexual desires AND your choice to marry us, when the urge to experience another man inside you comes along, and it really should be acknowledged when it does come along, our blessing and trust for you will ultimately work for both our pleasures, and may lead to mutual sexual pleasures with others, but more, much deeper love and sexual satisfaction with each other. This fact is stated over and over by mutually-sexual-sharing married spouses – their own sexual pleasures and love for each other deepens as they share sex and love with others both love.

    Isn’t this easy to see? The more people sharing all forms of love and care for each other the more caring love there is for each one? Makes good sense to so many people that trying to dismiss it is plain ignorant!

    Another way I am learning to see it is the religious and social systems that hammer us with their ideas of power and control and interpretations of values they assume are their right to impose on those they can establish power over. The church is notorious for going against the very book it claims is its role model! If church members only begin to study all the deceptions the church plays on its members about sex and marriage, then honest people leave the church or demand its leadership support the entire scope of the book they claim to follow. Same for government. It needs to get out of the marriage business! It forced it’s authority into family life last century, where it never before was involved! Leave us alone, government!

    Thanks for your response, Georgi!

  • qflux

    September 21st, 2016 at 11:37 PM

    ClaudeA… You’re obviously a cuckold fetishist (or real cuckold) with an agenda to your posts.
    If you get off on staying faithful while your “wife” has sex with as many men as possible, then good for you.
    But there are real people on this thread who are seeking real advice. Cuckolds fetishists need to realize that no matter how much they rant and rave about “society”, “religion” or whatever, *most* men find what you obsess over *utterly repugnant*
    Even the majority of swingers/polys/opens can’t really relate to what you’re saying. There is *nothing* wrong with not wanting your wife to start having sex with other people after 15 years of marriage. There is *nothing* wrong with not wanting your husband to start having sex with other people after 15 years of marriage. This isn’t about “society” and “religion”. It is about *individual comfort*.

  • Lucasred

    July 29th, 2016 at 9:04 PM

    Leave her. She is killing you slowly. There’s no way she could love you and still put you through this.
    You’re afraid you won’t have her love but that has already happened. Find somebody that actually deserves to be loved. Somebody better.

    Reply

  • Jen

    July 30th, 2016 at 2:51 PM

    I just started reading this and am facing identical situation, but with my husband wanting it. I have had the same thoughts as you did, 1 2 3. May I ask how it worked out? I am right in the middle and completely lost as to best course. 20+ years of marriage, 3 kids.

    Reply

  • Janice

    August 2nd, 2016 at 11:12 PM

    I’ve been searching for answeres for these same issues, I’m in the same situation, 14yrs 3 kids also, my gut is so naughted up, part of me would like to do this for my husband, but I feel it would destroy me, then our family! He sees this as control, I just want him to myself, I feel like it’s love!

  • Roger

    August 3rd, 2016 at 7:45 AM

    This issue started in my marriage about a year ago and it’s been a complete disaster. My wife started seeing a married man who was lying and cheating on his wife, I wasn’t ready at all to deal with it. Long story short, my wife fell in love with this creep, refused to work on our marriage and of course the guy bailed on her when his wife found out and it stopped being convenient for him. Yet she’s still pining for the asshole and probably goes to see him once in a while. I want to get away from her immediately, but with two kids at home there are no easy solutions. So beware — my life became a total nightmare with no end in sight. Working on the marriage is always the better solution.

  • ClaudeA

    August 3rd, 2016 at 9:51 AM

    Janice, It’s a simple thing to share with you, but very hard to implement, and see desired results. The simple fact is integrity. There is a “Lucasred” making many very bad, nasty, harmful statements here out of what appears to be a hurting experience(s) he suffers from intensely, That is to abandon those Life goals and the relationship vows each couple decides to ageee about at their prenuptial relationship forming time.

    In his mind you just dump the whole family and retaliate, go find someone you use to hurt the one you love, and make an ass out of yourself in the process.

    Not good.

    Janice, go back to Integrity. What *IS* your prenuptial agreement with your man? Center your heart and thoughts on that. Not that it becomes obsessive to demand anything, but that YOU become centered. YOU be the very same lover for your family that you were then. Be true to the one you were then, and share lovingly that you desire your lover do the same for himself.

    Nothing less. Nothing more, Janice.

    Then *IF* the two of you practice this centering integrity together until both are of one heart and mind and *COMFORTABLE* together, there is room for the both of you to explore other relationship interests – *TOGETHER.*

    So, Janice, practice internal integrity this way, and DO the love from this base. It may not get you where you want so far as your marriage – relationship is two ways – but, you will know you are the best you can be for your family, including your lover, children, parents, community, and your own success in Life.

    Hope all the best for you and yours, Janice.

  • ClaudeA

    August 3rd, 2016 at 10:05 AM

    Roger, I shared with Janice the same as I share with you, now. Her response to Jen appears with yours.

    Integrity to the *Roger* who your were at the time when the two of you made plans to share Life together is the place you want to center yourself on now, Roger. That is the man your wife imagined sharing her life with. People change, so centering on the Roger she assumed she would share life with may be a different Roger today. *IF* you decide to center yourself on being THAT Roger, it may be helpful to ask her to point out ways she remembers THAT Roger was. She may even help you!

    In any case, the same as I share with Janice, the Roger you are best for YOU is the Roger who is the same one your wife decided to share her life with. Some good things never change, especially when they are under duress to be altered by selfish and harmful pursuits.

    Like with Janice, Roger, be the best you and no matter what may happen, the Roger you then are has integrity and simply, trustworthy love and Life values.

    I hope all the best for you and yours.

    One thing about lovers who are in love with integrity at the center, they face life choices and changes together, forming deeper bonds of their relationship, so that change adds to their family, not harm.

  • Patrick

    July 3rd, 2017 at 11:48 AM

    My wife and I have been married for 12 years. She hit me with this a few weeks back. I told her I was not comfortable with it. She asked if she could join Tinder to explore. I said ok. She then started to talk to a guy on there that had done things like this with married women before. She told me she just wanted to have lunch with him. I agreed to LUNCH. She then proceeded to have sex with this guy anyway, knowing that I was not on board with this whole idea. I feel completely betrayed and am fairly certain I won’t be able to continue in this marriage. She says over and over that she loves me and it had nothing to do with me. But the betrayal is still there. Any advice anyone has would be great. I am trying to forgive her but I don’t know that I can. Especially since she wants to continue to do this even though I am not on board with it. You would think most guys would jump at the chance to have sex with multiple partners, but I just don’t think I am that guy. She has destroyed all trust I had.

    Reply

  • Peter

    July 3rd, 2017 at 2:35 PM

    When you focus on your love for each other, you can overcome everything in your relationship, even sex with others. Then you can give your partner whatever she/he wants.

  • AJ

    August 25th, 2019 at 7:02 PM

    Hello, wow… she said just lunch and then she has sex with him….? She lied to you and cheated on you. She wants to continue with her affairs. My advice is to divorce her, you’ll never trust her again and she’ll just continue to do it behind your back. She obviously doesn’t have any respect for you and your marriage. I’ve been where your at and it doesn’t get better. I am so very sorry to hear this and I can tell you that it does get better with time . Once you hit her with divorce papers it will lift the fog from her and she will try to say she’ll stop…. don’t buy into that. My ex tried that with me and I believe her then I caught her at it again. They want there cake and eat it too. Your paying the mortgage and everything else just so she can go out and sleep with other men? She using you as a atm machine. Let her go, there are plenty of decent women out there who will appreciate the man you are. I wish the best for you.

  • robbie2662

    April 9th, 2019 at 9:59 AM

    Is anyone still discussing this issue ? I, literally, am dealing with this right now, but don’t want to type a book on here is no one can provide feedback.
    Thanks

    Reply

  • Chuck

    May 13th, 2020 at 5:59 AM

    Jerry it’s been a while since you posted, curious how it worked out. My educated guess it didn’t and if so I hope you are doing well today.

    Reply

  • Venn

    February 26th, 2015 at 12:16 AM

    my wife has said that she wants an open marriage too. I have already told her no. she continues to flirt with coworkers on the phone which makes me uncomfortable. Then she’ll feel guilty and snuggle up to me. I too cannot begin to think of a divorce. We have a 5 yr. Old daughter & if anything, I don’t want her to ever think it is ok to divorce. Marriage is sacred & I believe in death till we part. I believe we will grow old together. Lord knows I could have divorced her by now. Weather it’s right or wrong these are my feelings. If my wife is not strong, that’s on her. God will let her see her faults as the years go by. I must remain strong for my daughter and family. I feel for you, but know that you are not alone & it’s not your fault. Stay strong.

    Reply

  • Lucasred

    July 29th, 2016 at 9:10 PM

    Your marriage was a certain way for years. It was the way You Both agreed to. Out of nowhere she demands a complete change. You don’t have to agree to it. Make up your own mind. If nothing else beat her to the cheating life. Hire a good looking hooker. You don’t necessarily have to sleep with her just take a few photos having dinner, dancing, kissing and leave them somewhere. See if your wife is still happy with sharing.

    Reply

  • tara

    March 15th, 2015 at 7:38 PM

    My wife and I have been together for almost two years now which I think makes this even worse. she has randomly come clean about wanting an open marriage, I want no part in it so she says I don’t have to, but it’s what she wants and its with her boss who is also an old friend from school. She argues with me that I am brain washed and need to not conform to the stereotypes of marriage being strictly between two people. My greatest problem is someone else touching MY wife I cannot share. Yet its ether get being unhappy or me being unhappy and divorce is my very last option. Help me understand please!!…

    Reply

  • Lucasred

    July 29th, 2016 at 9:15 PM

    Don’t tolerate a marriage you didn’t sign up for. It’s only been 2 years. Let her go. You were wrong 2 years ago. She’s Not a keeper. You will be happier sooner if you divorce her now rather than be tormented and take what scraps she may give you.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    July 30th, 2016 at 6:21 PM

    Do you see the fallacy in the line of circular reasoning your words pose here, Lucas?

  • qflux

    September 21st, 2016 at 11:45 PM

    Lucas is saying “your wife has changed the rules on you after only 2 years and it is causing you agony. Long term it will get worse because she is very unlikely to be dissuaded since she actually managed to make it an issue. It may seem hard right now, but down the road you will be happier since this is *not* you (as evidenced by your current agony) and *not* what you signed up for (since it wasnt exactly part of the vows to ‘f other people once i feel like it’)
    That’s the *opposite* of circular reasoning. It’s a very rational and straight line.

  • Vivi

    March 24th, 2015 at 11:52 AM

    if people want to have open marriage / relationship, why married first and then make your partner so uncomfortable?

    if you stay single I think you can do all that without make your partner suffer, does everyone agree?

    Recently my fiancé told me that he wants to live in an open marriage, he felt that he can’t have simple life with me. He thinks that normal life and stable relationship is boring. And he brought that up.
    I have suffered this mentally for 6 months and I agreed the points that your all bring up “this will ruin the marriage in a long run” + ” emotions will transfer to love, not “just sex” I put my hands and foot down 100%

    I have to leave, it hurts me so much, but thank God we haven’t married yet.
    trust me to go through this type of mental stress is not fun, especially you love her/him so much that you would give everything to them but not open marriage.

    Reply

  • Alex

    March 31st, 2015 at 11:06 AM

    I recently broached the idea of an open marriage with my husband. We have since had many thoughtful, insightful, and deeply personal conversations about why I want one, how he/I feel about the idea, and the potential benefits and of course the drawbacks and complications.

    I was very nervous about bringing it up, afraid of hurting his feelings or having him perceive me the way so many men in this forum appear to have perceived their wives. He floored me by saying that no person can be 100% of what another person needs, and that he loves me too much to tell me I have to make “sacrifices” for the sake of convention. He said ultimately he has enough trust and confidence in our marriage that he knows if I pursue something it is with fun, excitement, or various other reasons in mind that have NOTHING to do with how much I love him, how committed I am to our marriage, or the fact that I wouldn’t have married him if I didn’t know I’d be buried next to him.

    I feel like he truly understands who I am. Not just who we were when we got married, but how I have changed and that he has been an active, engaged participant in the evolution of our marriage. He didn’t shut me down or make it about him and his ego.

    And lemme tell you men, any thoughts I had about testing the waters outside my marriage shrivelled up. His confidence, his faith in our unbreakable bond, and the fact that he continues to want to “get me” all these years later, was a bigger turn on than any fantasy I could conjure up. I feel more intimate with him now than ever. And down the road, if the urge comes up on either side, I know we can talk about it without judgement or resentment or fear.

    THAT is what I signed up for when I married him. Commitment is not synonymous with ownership.

    Reply

  • qflux

    September 21st, 2016 at 11:54 PM

    It’s good it worked out well for you.
    But please don’t assume that this is how it always goes. Do some searching. I have *personally experienced* multiple cases where both men *and* women reacted just like your husband. And their spouse APPLAUDED (just like you)
    And then 3 years on they were dumped for the “exciting new lover”. Ooops! Hey, not the explorers fault! They did go in with open and honest intent. Wasn’t THEIR fault it turned out someone AMAZING was out there! Even MORE amazing then the old ball and chain, eh? And since ultimately it worked out so well for them, really their spouse is better off since now THEY are free too (even though they werent looking for that). And if there are kids involved, I’m sure dad will get at least alternate weekends.
    For every story that ends like yours, there are more that go the other way. Most of the time, when someone makes this “discovery”, the marriage is really already over. But men are terrified to leave because they fear financial impact and being alone, and women don’t want to leave until the “AMAZING! new guy(tm)” is locked down and a sure thing. That’s reality far more often.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    September 22nd, 2016 at 9:11 AM

    qflux, all the responses you’ve left here are fascinating, to say the least. However, tell, please, how your experiences are now the very ones the entire rest of mankind must have in order to feel and experience good sexual and committed relationship?

    Playing the part of the Deity is dangerous, in the least sense. Don’t you think?

  • Derek

    October 10th, 2019 at 3:50 AM

    The desire to have multiple partners when you are in a COMMITTED RELATIONSHIP is a sign of underlying issues That need to be handled with your SO. This is not something that will be fixed with someone else, and a open relationship is unhealthy for the growth of a couple. I will use the example of feeling less attractive and getting old. The persons insecurities are the problem causing them to seek validation that they are still hot. We always look for the easiest fix doesn’t mean it’s the best and healthiest. This is a selfish superficial solution for someone that is avoiding the real problem. This is immature and hurtful behavior towards the person that you supposedly love so much that you married. Have some courage be honest with yourself and your SO and do the hard thing, that is work on yourself and the relationship. Sleeping with someone else is just putting your pain on your SO. That is not a fair or healthy relationship for anyone. People really need to start taking responsibility for themselves and stop making excuses. The whole your SO is not your property is a poor excuse to justify your actions. You got married under the context that you both would be committed to one another. I just don’t understand how people can’t see this. I mean In her story she goes from wanting to open her relationship, but after talking with her husband she got what she was really missing. Now has no desire to be with anyone else. Claims they are closer and more intimate then ever before wow who would have guessed. Open relationship just puts a wall between you and your SO. This is a way of distancing yourself and making you feel more safe by not dealing with your insecurities. On a side note there are people that are just fake and don’t care about anyone but themselves. Some people are just very narcissistic.

    Reply

  • STEW

    October 10th, 2019 at 11:53 AM

    I have moved to Mexico so she can do as she wants why fight it?

  • Jamie

    October 10th, 2019 at 1:49 PM

    This is just your opinion though, and it’s biased and narrow-minded. Commitment means different things to different people. Some people are ok with open relationships. Back in Nevada, I knew of a couple that had a menage a trois. The wife had kids with the other man as well. Polyamory isn’t for me-personally. Everyone was on board with it and they’re consenting adults. Who are we to judge?

  • Derek

    October 11th, 2019 at 7:46 PM

    Yes this is my opinion and everyone has their own. You don’t have to like mine and I don’t have to like yours. Everyone has their own life to live, and I’m not trying to stop anyone. It is just my observation that the majority of the time a open relationship is propositioned the relationship is already over. Like many have commented that it came to light that their spouse was already cheating. Respect, honesty, and communication is very important in a relationship. It is pretty obvious reading the comments that these qualities are missing in most of these relationships. They are not being completely up front about how they really feel and what they really want. It would seem that most have fallen out of love, but don’t want to give up the comfort and safety they have in their relationship. They don’t say this because it would be the end of the relationship. They are only concerned with what they want. That is why I say open relationships are superficial.

  • Guy

    April 7th, 2015 at 2:44 AM

    I am a husband of 17 years to my wife whom I adore and love very much. As a bit of a twist on this discussion I was the one to suggest an open marriage. Previously my wife very honestly and openly discussed her desire to try new experiences. This initially took the form of a threesome as she wanted to include me in the experience. The first time was okay, but the second was a total disaster.After much hurt and disappointment on both sides, as it was clear I was not as secure in myself as I thought. So after that experience and a lot of discussion it became clear that my wife still wanted and needed to explore and experience different sides of her sexuality and personality. Even though it caused a lot of pain and anguish for me, one thing became apparent. We were individuals when we met and had lost some of that when we became married and had a child. Life is too short to limit yourself to one person, and there is only so much that you can get from one person. With this in mind that is why I suggested the open marriage, as the only other alternative would be divorce. And to my mind at the moment that is something I do not want. I hope and believe that I am not making a mistake, but I am willing to find out. The best thing for me at the moment, is to know that I am giving my wife the chance and freedom to explore.I have no doubt that she loves me deeply and her main motivation is to strengthen our relationship and bring us closer as we trust and respect each other for who we are. To the other men who have posted, I truly have experienced all that you have..except somehow I saw this as a opportunity to maybe to do some exploring of my own. I am not trying to sell anything by any means, it has not been easy but maybe if you are really honest with yourself and put pride and jealousy on the shelf..you might have a different view.

    Reply

  • Jen

    July 30th, 2016 at 3:50 PM

    Hello Guy,
    I have read several threads here and your comments are interesting and insightful. Thank you! I am in a 20+ year marriage w 3 kids. My husband and I ‘swung’ with our long time friend couple a few years ago after some partying over a couple year period. We are still friends, but it did do some damage to our relationship with our friends. Oddly, the wife and I are still great friends because we trust one another completely and were very open and respected the others’ concerns, but we did this to please our husbands. Our husbands were actually closer before and are less so now. I think some of it irrepairable, unfortunately. Thru this, my husband had a trigger and has wanted an open marriage ever since. I liked some parts, others not so much. He has been patiently and not so patiently waiting on me to come around. I have suggested baby steps like a threesome that is just meaningless with me there, but he now says he wants it all and the freedom to do it all with trust. He has given me freedom and says it turns him on to see me turned on. Initially, he told me that was his main fantasy, to see me turned on, I am a key component. I don’t necessarily need or want that freedom although it does feel nice to be trusted. Well, I drug my feet and he now wants it all with and without me. He says he loves me and I am his everything, and he never wants to be without me but if I don’t go for this, he is willing to leave our marriage, but is working to convince me it will be good and healthy and I should consider. Unfortunately, in the past year, he has gone behind my back a few times pursuing this in an effort to ‘scratch his itch’ as he called it. I am extremely hurt and he is telling me he wouldn’t have to go behind my back if I’d just give this to him. We have a great sex life. He has told me he would rate it 10/10. I definitely would too. I don’t get it. I don’t understand why the willingness to risk our relationship for this. I don’t view it how he does. It is very threatening to me and I want to get past my fears or want him to get over this. I’ve definitely been slow, a lot of crying and wish I felt differently. I want him to be happy. But it feels like I am having to sacrifice my own security and happiness in my very long, beautiful marriage to make him happy and I’m not convinced I will end up not having my heart broken watching him fall in love with somebody else. He has been my world for more than half my life. That song from Stevie Nicks “Landslide” pretty much sums up where I am. I do not want to live without him. He is my best friend. I am his. I just don’t know how to do this without feeling so much pain. How did you do it? How do you and your wife make it work? I would love to hear her side too.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    July 30th, 2016 at 6:10 PM

    Jen, this may not make a bit of difference to heal your very, very valid hurts.

    Your husband is lying through his teeth. His words and demands and his acts, as you related them, make this exceeding clear.

    His vows to you are not at the heart of his relationship with you, from your description. He is doing “circular reasoning” to attempt to create a confirmation of his lack of dedication to his relationship with you, Jen.

    That said, it’s up to you now to learn to counter his closed circle of reason at some point in it. Look for the weakest argument he has little self defense to cover his illicit deception. Be caring, respecting and gentle as you persist, making certain he is fully aware that you have unwavering love for him.

    Things work out when Truth is the focus of Love.

  • Lucasred

    August 1st, 2016 at 4:58 PM

    Jen:
    Be true to yourself. Anything else will turn out to be quicksand – a slow tortuous death. You shouldn’t need to make this kind of fundamental sacrifice to the foundation of you marriage.
    Ask him if he would be willing to have a sex change as you’d like to try a lesbian lover. His request and ultimatum are every bit as big a deal breaker and as outrageous as that.
    I hope r econsiders. Good luck.

  • Jeff

    April 28th, 2015 at 1:09 PM

    Hey Guy,
    I’m in a similar position of deciding whether to go for an open relationship or not. How’s that working out for you a few weeks later?

    Reply

  • Guy

    April 29th, 2015 at 4:17 AM

    Hi Jeff,
    What I can say so far is that I have experienced more in 3 weeks than have in 3 or more years.In this time I have been challenged to trust without question,have open and honest discussions about everything no matter how difficult the subject and above all..love and respect my wife…always. The decision to enter into an open marriage should not be taken lightly.Advice that I can offer from my experience id that you need to make sure that you are doing this for the right reasons, that is at least for me to strengthen and build on the love that you already share with your partner.You also need to make and agree on rules…don’t make a move until you have some firm ground rules that you will both follow and are fair as well.For example a couple of our rules are..we do not bring anyone back to our bed or home and we always let the other one know where we are and who we are with before a “date” and that we are okay and coming home afterwards as well as Safe Sex always!!.A book that I have had strongly recommended that my wife and I read is -The Ethical Slut: A Practical Guide to Polyamory, Open Relationships & Other Adventures By Dossie Easton. I have not read this book yet but I fully intend to. It sounds like a lot of work, I suppose it is initially but it does get easier and it is well worth it..trust me. Another thing that you will need to get prepared for and comfortable with is that if you choose to use a dating site, your partner WILL get more attention than you…it is supply and demand there are a lot more men than women..fact. That doesn’t mean you won’t get any attention, just be aware that it will take longer.Benefits of an open marriage that I have found so far is that your relationship becomes stronger and deeper, you can both meet experience some wonderful people and have some really good times, you get to know yourself better…a lot better. One last piece of advic for you and your partner…STI’s get properly informed and tested before you start..this is something I was ignorant/complacent about until I was sent a message out of the blue by a wonderful lady appraising me of the risks and sharing an insight into her personal experience.A lot of people assume they are STI free…not always the case. Mistakes will be made early on as you work things out , can’t stress this enough…Communication, Honesty and Trust are the keys to making this work.There are a lot of resources on the net on the subject from people a lot more experienced than myself. For myself and my wife the experience has been truly wonderful and just gets better, yours may turn out to be as good or better it is entirely up to you and your partner.I wish you luck and success in your decision.I hope I have helped you in some way.

    Reply

  • qflux

    September 22nd, 2016 at 12:00 AM

    Worrying about STIs and safety while going to have sex with strangers *within* a marriage! Sounds like AMAZING FUN! Definitely worth it.

    This “deal” only works for women, which is why most of the time it’s the women asking. For every 100 guys your wife “dates” it will be amazing if you find *one* woman. You know this.

    Reply

  • Karen

    May 17th, 2015 at 6:42 PM

    I have been with my partner for just 1 year. We met on a dating website and fell for each other instantly. We haven’t spent a night apart since the day we met and we have a great relationship. He has revealed to me that he wants to try swinging as a couple. To me, this sends signals of him eventually wanting an open relationship. The issue is that I don’t quite think I could watch him have sex with somebody else or even the thought upsets me. I truly believe that although sex can happen without the emotion attached, eventually, one of the parties will become emotionally attached. I just think we are wired that way. I guess I don’t comprehend how people can let their partners sleep around without any jealously. I believe that if people want to have multiple partners, why not just stay single and not have to worry about the emotional attachment, jealousy, and the hurt that may be caused with sleeping around. We live in a day and age where having an affair etc is so in your face and temptation is hard to surpress. Although I’ve told my partner that I may consider giving the swingers scene a go, I’m not so sure about it. It seems that couples who do this have been together for years and are looking to rekindle that spark. For us, it’s only been a year and I feel that we haven’t experienced enough sexually yet together and within our relationship to consider sleeping with other people. I don’t understand where it’s all coming from as I can’t keep my hands off my partner and he says that he can’t keep up with me sexually sometimes so it’s not like there is a lack of sex. It’s really wearing me down mentally as I am not sure whether I should end the relationship now or if I’m avoiding the inevitable? I would appreciate any advice or opinions. Thanks

    Reply

  • Victor

    June 7th, 2015 at 12:01 PM

    Dear Karen, If you are not comfortable with him sleeping with another girl you can do it with another guy. My wife and I have done this stuff for almost 30 years, I had no problem with jealousy because our rule was:

    There is no romance between the man and my wife. No kissing like lovers, no sex without me there. Avoid missionary position as much as possible. My wife and I should have body contact any time they engage in sex. They can’t contact each other without my permission. And more.

    Our reason for doing this was: I love her so much that I don’t want her wonder how good it would be with a full size tool, I want her to get to enjoy it once in a while.

    She usually gets one on her birthday, our anniversary, and valentine’s day. Sometimes she even get as a christmas gift.

    Reply

  • Lucasred

    July 29th, 2016 at 9:38 PM

    I completely agree with you. Eventually an attachment will form as sex is the ultimate intimacy.
    The way I look at it is that if you’re still shopping for an intimate partner, you Will find one that exceeds all of your spouses traits. If you need to keep shopping, you should not have ‘settled’ for your current spouse.
    Just my line of thinking.

    Reply

  • Guy

    May 18th, 2015 at 3:33 AM

    Hi Karen,
    First of all I can identify with where you are at, I was at a similar cross-roads in my marriage of almost 18 years. My circumstances and life are different to yours. However that said I believe I can offer some insight and limited advice on the topic, as I have experienced quite a bit in a short space of time..believe me. You are very wise to approach this with caution, this is definitely something that needs to be discussed honestly and thoroughly. What I would suggest be the first thing to be discussed is what is his motivation for moving towards swinging, what does he expect to get out of it for himself and how it would enrich the relationship you already have and does he feel there is anything missing. Maybe there are some clues in how these questions are answered as to what the driving force is, and in turn you might have a better idea on what the future may hold in terms of your relationship and moving forward. All of your concerns regarding jealousy, emotional attachment risk and not being able to watch your partner have sex with somebody else are very real things indeed, and I have had a taste of all of them..especially in my case the emotional attachment. These can bring out some very nasty situations if not handled carefully and quickly. Swinging/open relationships are generally for people that are at a point where they know each other inside and out and want to experience other people and bring something back to their relationship, usually the 40 something demographic(which I fit into).I am not sure I have helped you that much but I can say your concerns are very valid, you need to see if you can find out and understand where your partner is coming from and why. You also need to do what is right for and what feels right for you without compromise. I made the mistake of trying something that my wife wanted(MFM Threesome) and thought I could deal with it because I loved her so much…as it turns out I couldn’t and the roller coaster I was on wasn’t fun for me and I wouldn’t recommend it. All I can say is in my opinion you have so much more to learn from and experience with each other before moving toward anything else. Talk to your partner, if you have friends that are not judgemental and you trust, talk to them also. Get some different perspectives if you can.I hope that I have helped in some way and hope that you are able to work through this.

    Reply

  • Karen

    May 18th, 2015 at 4:18 PM

    Hi Guy

    Thank you for your reply and advice. Basically, I have spoken at length with my partner regarding his reasons etc. He just says that it’s something he has always wanted to try / a fantasy. He doesn’t say that it’s other people he is interested in sleeping with but that the excitement of being there watching other people is what excites him. He says that everything we do, we will do together and always be in the same room. He is 51 years old and also says that because of his age, he wants to experience things and have fun. I am 45 years old. He had previously been in sexless relationships and I also found out that he cheated which is a red flag as well. In the heat of passion and excitement, I may be into the swinging thing but I worry about my feelings and conscious afterwards. I guess what bothers me the most is that we haven’t been together all that long and I feel as though I’m still in the honeymoon phase. You are correct, we haven’t experienced everything together yet so not sure that bringing other sexual partners into our lives would be a good thing. I love him so much and he treats me like a princess. I want to be with him but my gut feelings are telling me otherwise. I sort of understand your situation being in a marriage for 18 years. For us, it’s only been 12 months. It’s great to hear other people’s perspectives especially from the male point of view. I don’t really have anyone that I feel comfortable telling.

    Reply

  • Travis

    September 13th, 2019 at 10:44 AM

    Karen, my wife has sex with others but I do not. I love her deeply. I either watch or she tells me about it after. She just had issues being satisfied because of my small size. And, she loved me enough to tell me of her dissatisfaction. She did nothing behind my back. She helps me when I feel jealous or deal with other feelings.
    But, I do feel good that she is now sexually satisfied.

  • Guy

    May 19th, 2015 at 5:57 AM

    Hi Karen,
    I can understand where your partner is coming from in a sense, he has got to a point in his life where he wants to experience new and exciting things. As the person I had my first and only interaction to date with outside of my marriage put it “creating death-bed memories”. I also have a similar new outlook on life , and my mantra has become “Live the live you want , not the one expected of you”. So I do get the fact that you don’t want to get to the end of your life and say “Gee ..wish I had of done this or tried that.”, but that said you also need to take into to consideration is how going after what you want will impact others ,especially the ones you are sharing your life with and care very deeply about. A lot of what you have written echoes a lot of what I was thinking and working through about 3 months ago, albeit not swinging with another couple but close enough. Like your partner my wife wanted to include me in her fantasy of having a threesome. The first time was nerve racking but the other person was a slightly older than me and very personable as well as respectful to my wife and myself. This went pretty well and wasn’t too full on, my wife enjoyed it (putting it mildly) and I got enjoyment and pleasure through her. So a bit of a nice intro and I thought okay wasn’t so bad, the second time however was a disaster. I didn’t get a good read from the other guy but thought my wife really wants to do this again and I didn’t want to disappoint her, worst mistake ever as I was to later find out. Basically this person didn’t respect me and I became the “third wheel” and before I knew it he was having sex with my wife and I found that so confronting and shocking. I lost control of the situation due to inexperience and a false sense of duty not to spoil an experience for my wife. This was a traumatic event I was literally in shock and it took me days to process and deal with feelings of hurt, anger with myself and resentment toward the other guy involved. Suffice to say that shut down the threesomes as my wife said she couldn’t enjoy the experience as she would be worried about how I was feeling and we then went for separate interactions by way of open marriage suggested by me (for reasons in my earlier posts). I suppose what I am trying to illustrate by sharing my experience is that entering in to these types of scenarios where both parties aren’t fully on-board can be damaging both ways. What I have learned so far is that even though you love somebody so much, going along with something they want shouldn’t come at the cost of you. Another thing I realised is that I was so connected to and in love with my wife, that I sacrificed my values and needs for her happiness… as I unknowingly over time had made her my only source of happiness and lost who I was along the way. I am not saying this as it is a bad thing it is just what happens when you focus all of your attention and affection on one person and they become your world. The point I am taking the long way around to try and make is that there are a lot of variables and things can and do go wrong and can be at a cost. I suppose I am also validating your concerns about how you might feel and if this might weigh on your conscience afterwards. There are some positives and again this is just my experience so far, you can find out a lot about yourself ..you can also meet some wonderful people who are very open and comfortable with who they are sexually and personally…and sure you can have some fun along the way. At the end of the day it comes down to what you want, and more importantly what you don’t want. I wish I had of been a bit stronger or stuck to my guns when things were getting a bit sketchy maybe I could have avoided some of the hurt and anguish. Disappointing someone is better than living with regret.
    Karen, the only thing I can really say is trust your ‘gut’ feelings/intuition as that is trying to warn you of danger or something is not right. But also temper that with listening to your heart. Maybe have another talk to your partner and ask him has he really considered how he would feel if he saw somebody else having sex with you for example, my gut tells me he hasn’t given this enough thought (probably a huge assumption on my part). And as a follow up is this really a big thing on his ‘bucket list’ and is it worth possibly affecting your relationship. I have shared what my experiences have been as well as some of my opinions and views. I hope that some of this may be of help to you and your partner.
    One last thing I mentioned a book to Jeff in my earlier post in this thread ,Ethical Slut: A Practical Guide to Polyamory, Open Relationships & Other Adventures By Dossie Easton, I had it recommended to me and my wife. Have a look at it on Amazon I haven’t read it fully but what I have read does discuss a lot of strategies to deal with emotions and other situations, well worth a look.

    Reply

  • stew

    September 13th, 2019 at 3:37 PM

    It Ain’t perfect but it works for us. I live mostly in Mexico where she visits 5 or 6 times a year. She has a number of lovers and a couple of full-time guys she uses weekly. No incriminations, no questions. It works for us.

    Reply

  • Victor

    May 19th, 2015 at 7:22 PM

    I let my wife have sex with other man too but our situation different from all others.

    My wife and I are Asian and most Asian man have very small manhood including mine. I love her so much that I can not imagine her not getting full sexual satisfaction the rest of her life with me. A Couple of months after we got married, I bought a sex instruction video for us to learn about love making. That’s where we saw a white man’s manhood that caught our attention. Two years later we went to a sex toy store and met a well endowed white man who offered to let us use his manhood instead of a rubber and we accepted it. Since then my wife got to have sex with well endowed men several times a year. We have been married for 30 years now. My wife is so far one of the happiest wife among the Asian woman. Our love have been very strong band.

    Reply

  • don

    August 23rd, 2016 at 5:33 PM

    victor,
    yours is an awesome story….you are very thoughtful

    Reply

  • Steven

    May 22nd, 2015 at 11:35 AM

    My wife and I shared a girlfriend for most of our 40 year marriage. We were a sexually faithful triad so there were never any issues of jealousy especially since we were all friends since we were kids.

    Our lifestyle put us into contact with many couples into various types of open marriages. They each started our saying that they had a strong marriage, trusted each other and had firm rules in place, and ended with bitter divorces because sex is called making love for very good reasons and there is always someone much better than you out there for your spouse to meet and fall in love with.

    Multiple relationships are logistically and emotionally difficult. They are also very stressful because you always have to think about not doing anything to make the other person feel insecure or ignored. Eventually, people will choose one relationship even if it means compromising, to reduce their stress. When this occurs, the spouse will pick the best person. If that person happens to be richer, better looking, more compatible and better in bed than you, guess who they will pick to stay with.

    It was almost a cliche that all of the 8 couples we knew with open relationships ended with one or both of the spouses running off with their lovers. All the logic and reasoning that goes into trying to convince your spouse is nothing more than wanting sex with others without feeling guilty about it. It never is that your spouse wants someone more financially sound or someone that is better looking, smarter, more educated, better dresser, etc.. It is about wanting sex with others plain and simple and yet people try to dress it up by using fancy titles for it.

    Reply

  • Lucasred

    July 29th, 2016 at 9:55 PM

    See that is exactly the way I would expect an ‘open marriage’ to progress. If married couples explore outside the marriage, they will eventually find a ‘better’ mate. There are 4 billion people on the planet. Sooner or later the odds will indicate that a more appealing partner will be found.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    July 30th, 2016 at 6:19 PM

    Lucas, may I?

    The “End of It” is only the desired product. Can we agree that if the couple truly see in each other complete satisfaction in their relationship and desire sexual interaction with others for the benefit of each other’s sexual experiences – as we all want to know the intimate side of those people we are life-long friends with at some level – then the goal is not discovering better relationship, but giving each other better sexual living as the betterment of already best friends, lovers and family members.

    The other side is that claiming to want outside sex to satisfy the spouse but hiding the fact it is for one’s own sexual gratification and therefore from an underlying dissatisfaction with sex with the spouse, then we’re dealing with deception, whether either or both spouses see it ot not.

    Make a little sense?

  • Lucasred

    August 3rd, 2016 at 8:59 AM

    ClaudeA: I do agree that if both partners want an open marriage, there’s nothing wrong with it.
    I’m not claiming a moral high ground. I completely disagree with your statement that we All want to share intimacy with our friends. Perhaps Some do. Speaking for myself, I require a lot of alone time and could never share so much with so many. I think you as well as I project a bias towards our own beliefs. I had a wife who had a month long fling that started while on a vacation. I found out and she pulled the same open marriage request theme. I found this to be an excuse and an attempt to gloss over her blatant disrespect for our marriage. We took vows. I really meant them. Why say them if you don’t mean them? Why be married if you want to share intimacy with others? Be single and share to your hearts content. I have no problem with that for others but it cannot be part of my relationship.

  • ClaudeA

    August 3rd, 2016 at 11:24 AM

    Thank you, Lucasred. Sharing insight from your relationship expectations and then experiences clears up a bunch of the reasons lying under the comments and responses that you leave here to many posters. Let’s take the way that you and most perceive their vows – it’s all built on set-in-concrete expectations that more likely than not are based on learned ideas of marriage long before the idea of marriage enters the minds of the couple. This expectation is more the “idea” of marriage than the day to day practice of the relationship. It is the central theme of expected married life for usually both individuals.

    When real Life comes along, the staid expectation hits snag after snag, and gets lots of encouragement to change. May I ask you to go watch this presentation about the staid way we people get stuck on preconceptions and staid expectations at a TEDs meeting?

    ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity?language=en

    We people get stuck in our “WAY.” We lose the wonderful innocence of leaning and the flex of mental agility of our childhood, as we take on set-in-concrete expectations, especially about relationships with others, including marriage, if not specifically marriage.

    That’s partly for the better, as a family that constantly changes has no sound base to call “Home.” Yet, the marriage that both or all members are on the same page together has as its “Glue” is the capacity to change in ways that each member has more security in the relationship, more “Home” to the ways they sense their marriage benefits them and each other member, and less reason to feel unfulfilled or even abandoned by their spouse(s).

    Can you see how vulnerable to damage your heart is with the staid expectations that you share here, Lucasred? Actually, by the words you share all over the place here, it is clear that your heart suffers under a burden of defeated expectations that are inflexible, and self-centered. Do you see this?

    Hope this encourages you to begin deciphering the expectations that rule your life.

  • Lucasred

    August 3rd, 2016 at 9:54 PM

    ClaudeA: My expectations are that my wife will be faithful to me as I am to her. This seems extremely reasonable to me. I would be hurt much more if I agreed to accept cheating or affairs that my wife indulges in. Everytime she allows another man to share complete sexual intimacy would tear me apart. So, No I don’t believe my expectations are unreasonable or limit my happiness. I also don’t believe that requiring my wife, the person I love, to keep her faith to me as we both agreed. The first point is that I love her and I’m unwilling to share that love. Call it childish if you like. The second point was that I see marriage as a contract. We both agreed to the terms. If either party wants out of the contract then bring it to the others attention. THEN WE decide if we can reach a new agreement. For me, I would rather be single and dating, than to be married and dating. There would be no benefit to being married For Me if we are both, or individually, dating and having sex with others.

  • qflux

    September 22nd, 2016 at 12:07 AM

    There are lots of us who feel just like Lucas. We aren’t “limiting ourselves” are “leaving ourselves open to damage”.
    If your ilk are so confident in “free love”, then *why not be up front*. Oh right… society… Uh huh.

  • Joe

    June 6th, 2015 at 9:08 PM

    Steven, you really hit the nail on the head with your fourth paragraph.

    My wife has been proposing the open marriage idea for some time now. Even tried to get me and her friend together. I am against it.

    She was raped at 14 and for the first 10 years of our 12 year marriage, sex was not a big part of it. Now at 36, she feels she is over it and needs to make up for lost time, but it is not with me. She wants the “thrill of the hunt.” We both work and have three children under the age of 8. So the day to day is not very exciting. I get that she wants to feel sexy again and even though I make her feel that way, it is more exciting when a stranger makes her feel that way. She swears up and down that I am the one she wants to grow old with and doesn’t want to ruin our relationship with the kids. It would just be sex. But, I am almost 100% certain that it won’t end well. I somewhat trust her on this matter but, I can’t at all trust the guys she gets involved with. She has given me the veto power of any guy she meets, but what does that mean? I get to tell her she can’t do someone. If that was the case and she respected my decision, we wouldn’t be having the open marriage discussion anymore and it would be off the table completely. Just seems like a recipe for the end of a marriage.

    Any thoughts on how I can get her to listen to my opinions without being told I’m old fashioned and this is why so many marriages fail. She says it’s because people have needs that can’t be completely met by one person forever.

    Reply

  • Darren Haber

    June 7th, 2015 at 10:24 AM

    Joe, I really think that based on her trauma — which can later lead to thrill-seeking at the cost of hurting oneself or loved ones — and your emotional reactions eloquently described here, that either you or both of you might seek some counseling to tease out what’s important about this as individuals and as a couple. You’ve reached an impasse but hope is not lost. The sexual issues here sound like they’re devolving into a power struggle, a tug of war which can go back and forth forever while skating the surface; sex is often a red herring distracting couples from even more potent relationship issues and conflicts beneath the surface. “If he loved me he’d…” or “She needs to see that…” Deep emotional understanding is a kind of metaphorical sex that can be transformative. Actual sex is rarely “just sex” because it is such an intense and emotionally heightened experience, with wildly varying meanings for those participating. It means different things to everyone, depending on the context of their own journey with self and partner — hence the age-old disputes between men and women. It’s also a myth that all men can “detach” randomly and have sex without feeling; many men I know are terrified of sex precisely because their partner means so much to them that the risk of disapproval or disappointing them is overwhelming. Thus they use porn — or other means, multiple partners, swinging etc. — as a kind of substitute or unconscious “protection” against the terror of vulnerable intimacy. (This is a gross generalization and I am not taking a moral stand by any means; it is a deeply personal decision and must be seen as thus. I’m talking about the “why” of its importance to any given person, and its emotional safety to self and partner, versus its being *right* or not.) Anyway thank you and others for your honest posts, I appreciate it very much.

    Reply

  • Vaesali

    June 9th, 2015 at 2:28 PM

    My partner of 22 years sprung the same thing out of the blue on me as well. This is not something one should take lightly.

    I was told that it was “just sex”, that because we had only ever been with one another that “life is short”, “it’s not normal to only have one sexual partner”, all the excuses.

    So we opened the relationship to include others at the same time.

    The real issue came when she became infatuated with a co-worker. It had to be with him, it had to be without me there, and it was going to happen with or without my permission. She refused counselling.

    After weeks of negotiating with me, trying to convince me to engage in relations with a co-worker of mine, I was worn down, I capitulated and told her to go ahead. If she was willing to accept hurting me so bad and risk destroying our relationship. She went ahead.

    That was it, that was the deal breaker. It is rarely ever “just sex”.

    We are now separated for just over one month. It is the hardest thing I have ever gone through, worse than dealing with the grief of death. At least with death there is finality, some closure.

    Unless you are both truly on the same page, this is, IMHO, a very slippery slope and a very dangerous proposition.

    Reply

  • Jen

    July 30th, 2016 at 4:11 PM

    Hello Vaesali,
    May I ask where you are now? I am in your situation you were a year ago and considering just giving in, in hopes this will just get over with. I don’t want to throw away my 23 year marriage. You nailed it with the grief comment, I have felt the same way. I am grieving the loss of somebody who is sitting and telling me they love me more than anything, but will leave if I am unwilling to give them this freedom. He also said he knows he would come back so why not do this together, yet it doesn’t feel like we are together. Have you been able to reconcile? Thank you for your time.

    Reply

  • qflux

    September 22nd, 2016 at 12:11 AM

    So sorry for you brother, and I do mean that. This is what I keep saying. MOST of the time, folks in your position end up in your boat bud. It is NOT you. It’s her. And you had no power in it man. Try to make peace with it (believe me, I KNOW it is rough) and move on.
    What you’ll see here is lots of people telling you that it is somehow “wrong” to except *basic fidelity* from a partner. And yet………..
    These women who “must explore”, MOST of the time? Wind up glued on to one of their “lovers”. And guess what? Somehow at THAT point… They can stay faithful.
    This is just new age code for women “trading up” without having to have the stones to break it off first. And b/c here in the 21st century ALL behavior must be celebrated, we tolerate and discuss it and pretend it’s something it most certainly is NOT the vast majority of the time.

    Reply

  • Girl

    June 18th, 2015 at 7:03 AM

    Hello, I am currently in a relationship with the love of my life. She and I have been together for a littl over a year now. She was married to a man for ten years and has three amazing boys. She has communicated to me that she loves me and wants to be with me forever. A couple months ago, she told me that she had a friend who was a swinger with her husband and seemed intrigued at the idea. I was not. I have zero desire to be intimate with anyone other than her. I have tried to imagine what it would be like to be intimate with another person and it’s just not appealing to me. But I feel like that’s what she wants…or will want eventually. On one hand, I can ignore it and hope she doesn’t bring it up again or on the other hand, she could talk to someone who is interested in her sexually and she would want to explore that avenue. I don’t think I would be comfortable knowing that she is having sex with someone else. Is that a crazy concept?!? The other aspect is that we are both women. I clearly don’t have all the parts she desires. I never will. I feel like I will never be able to satisfy her the way she’s used to. She would never do anything behind my back but I worry that she’ll never truly be satisfied.

    Reply

  • linda

    September 13th, 2015 at 4:00 AM

    I’m pretty much at the same position. My partner of 9 years now wants to have an open relationship. She says that she wants to get some experience. Because life is too short. She says that I’m her love of her life, but as well she wants to experience the thrisome,and be with other people as well. She says that is gonna be only sex nothing else. Unfortunately I don’t feel that way. I believe that when you want to have sex it has to be love as well. She was married before, so I try to keep her happy as much as I can. I use toys to fulfill her desire. Even though I sacrificed everything for her, I left my family and follow her in to another country. And still for her is not enough. For me even the thought of sharing her with someone else, it is really really painful. I know that whatever I’ll do to please her she again will ask for more. I thought that love would heal everything and it would be the road to happiness, but it seems that it hides and other emotions that are unpleasant. I guess my next step has to be on envasting to myself and learn to be happy away from her.

    Reply

  • KT

    June 25th, 2015 at 2:32 AM

    My wife and I have been through a rough phase. I was made redundant 12 months ago and have only had part time / contract work since. My wife wanted a divorce 8 months ago but is still thinking about it

    She says that I am real dud in bed; and wants an open relationship. She knows that I love her but she wants another person

    I am stressed at home (marriage), work (that I have) and I am worried we lose our house (unable to pay the mortgage). I was exhausted last week and went to the doctor and now I am on medicine for depression.

    should I let me wife have sex outside (just to keep her)

    Advice, thoughts please

    Reply

  • Lucasred

    July 29th, 2016 at 10:22 PM

    If she has given you this as an ultimatum, then the answer is No. Divorce her if need be. She has already humiliated you by saying you’re a ‘dud’ in bed. Ask her to show you how to please her if something is lacking. If you don’t want an open marriage, just tell her that wasn’t an option in the wedding vows and don’t agree to a change.

    Reply

  • Zo

    July 17th, 2015 at 3:02 PM

    I had a similar story Vaesali. My wife attempted to introduce an “open relationship” a few months ago. She used phrases like, “I wouldn’t suggest it if we weren’t in a great place… This has nothing to do with our sex life, it’s great.” She wanted me to believe that the sheer taboo of doing it was the draw. The idea of being with another man sounded so exciting. She had done her research and was well prepared for my rebuttals but I said, “Hell no.” I was furious with her even suggesting the idea. I’ve never thought of myself as a jealous person and having carte blanche to go out and have “just sex” with another woman should be most men’s dream situation, yet I was hurt. The thought of her coming home to me after a raunchy sex session with some guy and kissing me on the lips was devastating. I instantly felt like I’d be a primary lover to my own wife. I get that it works for some folks but my mentality would not allow me to go there. She apologized got me a card that said, “I don’t know what the hell I was thinking. You’re the only one that I need in my life,” and everything. So 3 weeks ago, she asked me to consider another sexual act that just involved us. I was previously against years ago but I said, “sure, let’s do it.” Of course she asked, “what changed” and I replied with, ” we all do over time.” She then asked, “well is everything back on the table?” I replied with, “you mean sex with other people?” She replied with, “yes.” I said, “sure.” Now, why would I do it you ask? Well if she had the audacity to bring it back up after my initial reaction then she’s going to do it anyway. It’s obvious that it’s still in her mind and she wants to be selfish. In my mind, I was headed for divorce… quickly. That next weekend the sex was unbelieveable trying things we’d never tried. We both we satisfied several times over and I thought to myself, I’m good. To my dismay, 2 days later I receive a text that said,” Oh, I may be having sexual relations w/ someone sometime this week.” WTF?!?!? I was thought to myself, after that “amazing-breakthrough weekend” (her words) I let it play out for another couple of days and then I snapped. I sent a methodically written note to her releasing all of my frustration and anger about the situation with next steps with our impending divorce. To my surprise she freaked out, begged me not to leave, and said that she would get professional help because she doesn’t understand why she would even suggest it with how perfect our lives are. (her words) I’m thinking to myself, it can’t be that perfect!! #completelyconfused

    Reply

  • Richard

    November 14th, 2017 at 8:42 AM

    ZO, This woman is BAD NEWS for you !! Drop her like a bad habit !! My best friend had the same situation. He trusted his wife and stayed with her only to find out later that she had been with several men after she promised to stay true. DONT FALL FOR HER LIES !!!!! Plenty of women out there !!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Reply

  • Sam

    July 18th, 2015 at 3:23 PM

    Zo,
    I’ve got a theory. She’s pushing to see where your limits are? You said “sex with others” was back on the table. She was going to get some before you change your mind. She wants to do it and there IS SOMEBODY she wants to do it with. The reality is ALL women want to sleep with other men. They are biologically programed to want this from a primal prospective. They are wired to look for the best material for a mate = you (from your comments I would assume you’re the main breadwinner and alpha in the house) to provide them with security and a safe home life. Once they have found that they are programed to look for the “best physical specimen” to have sex with and produce the strongest offspring. (That is just the biological drive, the production of offspring is not actually achieved but that is the drive ~ well I guess sometimes offspring are produced and that’s a whole different can of worms)
    The deal is that some most women keep this desire in check and even though they desire other men, they don’t act on it and would NEVER tell their husbands about the desire. There is a LOT of research on this subject. These are professional studies done in clinical settings with serious scholars of sexuality. From what I’ve been reading, it happen to ALL women. And, they do seem to feel these desires “at their core” so they’re hard to ignore. There is a lot about the man’s prospective also. It is shown that a man who watches or knows that his wife engages in sex with other men will get hard faster, get harder, c** up to double his normal amount, have shorter periods between erections, etc. Many of the couples surveyed say that the sex between them was hotter than it had ever been after the wife had taken another lover either while her husband was present or with the husband’s knowledge. Please understand that I’m not suggesting you give into her desires… just that I do understand them after what I’ve read, even if I’m a man. Suggest you read Sperm Wars to understand why these primal desires are not weird for your wife to be experiencing.
    The part that I find curious is that she told you. Evidently she thinks you are more open minded towards these sexual things than you actually are. Maybe she just sees you as a mature adult who could discuss an adult desire without significant judgment. It appears she was right about that. From what I can see you acted very maturely EXCEPT for the “sure, it’s on the table”. QUIT playing games with her. Be honest. Be real. Say NO when the answer is NO and quit trying to set her up. As I explained above, ALL women have these desires. Your woman had enough trust and faith in your maturity to share her desires with you. If letting her play around is a deal breaker then say “That’s a deal breaker” and move on if you’re dead set on the issue. If it might be a possibility with LOTS of discussion then say that. DON’T say “ok” then threaten her with divorce. That is BS and totally immature. It’s not how mature people communicate.
    Why do I know all this? Married for 32 years and recently realized that for 32 years our fantasies/my fantasies always revolved around sharing her/watching with others and then reclaiming her. Even in fantasy the thought of another man with your woman can bring out some pretty charged sexual emotions. Just the fantasy of her being with another guy/guys has charged me up for 32 years. We still average 3x per week. Sometimes it’s just us and our connection. Sometimes it’s fantasy movies, props and toys = when we play like this, she’s with another guy and I’m watching or it’s a threesome.
    I tell you all this because I hope to show you where your wife is coming from. Sperm Wars will definitely help you understand her. She probably loves you a LOT more than you think if she told you/asked you for permission. If she didn’t respect you or your feelings she would have just cheated on you and let the chips fall where they might.
    In your case you might try talking to your wife about what “excitement” she is missing. Why she wants to try another man for “just sex”. If it’s just new and exciting sexual experiences she is seeking, maybe you can try some fantasy play. Get some toys. Pretend to be one of the guys in the movies.
    Not sure if any of this will help or be of assistance but I just wanted to point out to you that your wife is not an evil or awful person. She has primal desires and she told you about them. She would act on them but would only do so with your permission. To me that says she respects you above all her other desires. IMO that’s all that matters. What you decide to do with that information is up to you. Best of luck.

    Reply

  • Zo

    July 19th, 2015 at 2:13 PM

    Hey Nukngnr, I can most certainly appreciate your thoughts and points of view and I’ll definitely check out Sperm Wars. Sounds like an interesting read and I love broadening my sexual acumen. I buy into your theory that all women want to sleep with other men. If it’s woven into the fiber of their being then it’s a continuous battle that they must fight and suppress constantly. That must be challenging especially because these men out here today have no respect for the ring and they have no problem trying to sleep with mine. I can only imagine how they act when I’m not around. I have a beautiful wife. Not the ‘I married her and I must say that beautiful,’ I mean drop dead gorgeous. Lots of great information in your response but I do not agree with the thought that I “set her up.” If she had the audacity to broach the subject again 5 months after the worse freak out moment that I’ve ever had in our 12 year relationship then I wasn’t going to stop her. You stated that ALL women have this desire so it would stand to reason that if given the opportunity they eventually need to make a decision for themselves. Going forward with her scheme was a choice that she admitted to as the biggest mistake that she’s ever made in her life. At that time, I decided that I was not going to battle this thing for the rest of my natural days and allow her to make her choice. You view it as false pretense but I viewed it as “sure, do what you like.” As I started to think on this at a macro level, I was additionally offended because I felt like I was a set up. If she had told me that she wanted to have sex with other men 12 years ago before I said “I do” and allowed me to say, “no thanks” then that would have been the right thing to do. Not 12 years into it because it sounds exciting. I took my vows very seriously when I said, “forsaking all others to death do us part.” I’m sure that sex with others works well for some people but I can’t even imagine another man having sex with my wife. My thought is that if you want to do that then be single. We experiment with toys, role play, and other fun sexual activities and if that’s not enough then it’s cool. We can go our separate ways. Who’s to say that she hasn’t done it already and tried to hatch this plan to have guilt-free sex with him. Yes, there are some trust issues stemming from this but it’s something that we’re going to work through. I really appreciate the information that you provided and I’m optimistic that we’ll resolve this crazy issue.

    Reply

  • Sam

    July 20th, 2015 at 8:42 PM

    Zo,
    In your initial post you stated that you said “hell no, it’s not ok”… that’s a little different than the worst freak out of your 12 year relationship. Had you said that you freaked out, I might not have given you as much credit for being open minded, mature, listening to her and then putting your foot down and saying “that’s a deal breaker”.
    By the way, she didn’t set you up ~ she evolved. She found her alpha provider who keeps her safe and the saber tooth tigers away (you)… now she is drawn to try some new genetic material just in case you’re not the right guy for that task… not sure what that primal drive is all about but it happens… you need to read Sperm Wars.
    About my opening remark… please realize that I’m not poking you. I’m simply stating that I think most 12 year marriages that make it to 20 years or 32 years or 50 years don’t involve temper tantrums and threats between partners. Those are the marriages that fail. In our 32 years I have never threatened my wife with anything. We agree to discuss everything and if we can’t come to a compromise, the person with the biggest objection gets their way and we “move on”.
    You got your way when you said “no way”. When she checked back on your decision 5 months later… AFTER you agreed to other sex that was previously taboo… you said “sure”. And you wonder how she could have “possibly” asked you after such a blow up? I’d say you gave her some signs that you were opening up to new adventures and also “stated” that you were. I don’t wonder why she brought it up again ~ you encouraged her to through your actions.
    When you freaked out worse than you have in 12 years, you DIDN’T get down to the guts of her desires. You threw a tantrum and told her “I’m the man, I make the rules”… without ever fully understanding her desire. I can say that because if you had fully discussed it out to it’s ABSOLUTE conclusion, she would have never brought it up again.
    Even if the answer is a resounding NO WAY EVER… if you want to know your wife… reopen the discussion! Tell her you doubt that you would EVER change your mind but that you are at least interested in talking and exploring her desire with her in order to understand her.
    Solid relationships involve real, sometimes gut wrenching exploration of any and all subjects that either of the partners feel safe discussing. In a good relationship NOTHING is off limits for discussion. Off limits for “doing”, absolutely ~ but not discussing. She should be able to trust you and talk it through ALL THE WAY to conclusion, not just give up the discussion because you get mad.
    I doubt that she saw your “freak out” as an absolute “no” or she wouldn’t have brought it up again. Women aren’t stupid. You agreed to another type of “between just you two” sex that you had been unwilling to explore for years… she may have thought by your statement that “people change”… maybe you had a change of heart about playing with other people too. Maybe she “actually thought” since you agreed to do “that thing” and said people change you were subliminally trying to tell her you were sorry for beating her up about her desires before.
    You currently question her fidelity and maybe with good reason but just as likely with no reason what-so-ever. Sometimes introducing the idea of an open marriage into a relationship is an attempt to bring an affair out in the open and rid that person of guilt.
    From the way you describe your relationship I would “think” from her reactions to your anger ~ bought you a card, told you she didn’t know what was wrong with her, that she was going to seek help that she wouldn’t risk your relationship on an affair ~ she is too worried about losing you. She doesn’t put up a fight or ask you to discuss… as soon as you bark she acquiesces so I doubt she’s ever cheated but I don’t know. Only she does.
    I can empathize that having your wife suggest she be allowed to have another man can kill you emotionally (what am I not doing, why doesn’t she want me, she’s already got somebody in mind and is just setting me up to leave me, etc.)
    When you boil that down it’s all just ego and jealousy. Ego of “how could she want this ~ I thought she only wanted me, we’re married, she’s mine and jealousy as defined as the fear of losing something you have or not getting something you want. Well, you can’t lose something if it’s yours… it will always be yours. To me she sounds devoted to you and just wanted to have a little fun “IF” you would allow it.
    ONCE AGAIN ~ I do not suggest you allow your wife to pursue another man ~ it would ruin you. Just that you understand your reaction to her request to see another man. It churned up your guts and you should try to understand why.
    Knowledge is power my friend. The more you know yourself and understand your emotions, the more you are equipped to leave the emotions at the door and have mature conversations that lead to nearly absolute clarity with your spouse AND the absolute closest connection you can ever imagine.
    Honesty and not being afraid to talk to your spouse about anything, is beyond anything you ever imagined. That never happens in a relationship if there is fear of reprisal. Desires are just desires. Expressing a desire is an attempt to connect and see if our partner thinks we’re ok or thinks we’re weird or twisted.
    If you can keep your anger and hurt about being asked for an open marriage under wraps, or better yet understand your anger and hurt so that they just don’t have much power over you anymore then you might get through a discussion without ultimatums. If she doesn’t trust you to not beat her up for her feelings then she won’t talk honestly to you.
    I know this is a cliché but I would also STRONGLY encourage you to see a counselor. I don’t see why everyone is so embarrassed to do this ~ it can really help. You don’t seem in terrible trouble with your marriage but you guys aren’t communicating clearly. A counselor is just a coach who teaches you how to talk to each other without letting the emotions rule the conversation. If you’re open minded and honest about what you are trying to achieve, a good counselor can be the catalyst that gets you to answer questions for yourself that you didn’t even know to ask.
    Best of luck to you.

    Reply

  • qflux

    September 22nd, 2016 at 12:17 AM

    So when men want to have sex with other women, is that “evolved” or no?
    Just curious how far the “women are special and get a full pass, if you can’t accept that you are ‘unevolved’ ” thing goes

    Reply

  • Zo

    July 21st, 2015 at 7:28 AM

    Thanks Sam. I decided to seek professional help a couple of weeks and I saw a counselor. Not ashamed to admit the my “Counselor” is simply a synonym for Psychologist. It was the 2nd time that I’ve seen one. The 1st was after my bout of depression after I got injured from playing in the NFL. Anyway he’s giving me some takeaway items to think about and we’ll discuss them once we reconvene.
    I have no doubts that my wife may have evolved but that wasn’t part of the original deal when we said “I do.” I took my marriage vows very seriously and I don’t waiver from them. I’m very proud of the fact that I’ve never cheated and if I evolved into a serial killer tomorrow.. that’s not okay. People change and that’s a fact but I’m not obligated to stay with her after her transformation if I don’t like that person. If she’s drawn to new genetic material then that’s fine but he can also deal with her moodiness, selfishness, and lavish spending habits too. Not just get the goods once a week.
    It’s great that there are open minded people out here that feel like sex is just a physical act and that people that can spread their love across many others but I’m just not one those people and my counselor says that’s just fine and I shouldn’t be forced to find out why. Respect others decisions and harmonize accordingly. I’ve never thrown a temper tantrum or a threat. I simply stated my response to her suggestion. Every action causes a reaction. If you initiate the action, you must be prepared for the reaction that you may receive. I do love my wife but I don’t care to get down to the root of her desire to be with other men. She’s working with a counselor as well to get to more clarity about it. We’ve walked and talked through many issues (sexual and non-sexual) and reached viable compromises but this one will always be a dealbreaker.
    A couple of weeks ago she chose to go down that path again and I called her bluff. Basically she needs to find out why she’s having these desires and make her decision. If she wants to have a “little fun” that’s great but we both must view sex with other people as “fun” and unfortunately I don’t view that as “fun.”
    Contrary to belief, I’m not the ultimate dominant alpha male although I do take pride in protecting my family. My wife is not a shallow meek timid person that scurries in the corner every time I walk into the room. She knows it’s an equal partnership and that she can say and or ask anything that she wants which is why she felt comfortable enough to raise the sex w/ others suggestion the 1st time. We do have good communication. It’s definitely not great and we’re both culpable in this area but it’s a process. I want her to be happy and if being with other men does it for her then I’d wish her well on fulfilling her fantasies. I have been blessed with a healthy balance of emotion and methodical thinking so leaving my emotions at the door is not going to work for me.
    We only have 1 life to live and we both should be able to live it to the fullest. My counselor is going to help me get to the root of my issue but it’s most certainly not my ego. I know that she admires other men just as I admire other women and that’s all good. I’m optimistic that we’ll work it out and be happy.
    Thanks your thoughts, suggestions, and your feedback. It’s much appreciated.

    Reply

  • El telos

    September 11th, 2015 at 4:19 PM

    Well guys & girls, what we gotta realise is that if it comes down to a basic “f” then something is missing from the sex life, but why hasn’t the other partner mentioned this before?? If it’s a man, well we can turn our fantasies at the time to create a great orgasm whatever the situation, but if it’s a woman, well…. Is it as simple as they look for another man that can fulfill their fantasies? Why not just talk about what’s missing and ask your husband to try/do this? Or is it a completely new fantasy that once horny they must have fulfilled the way the alleged “perfect fantasy dream star” does it…. Is this something that the “husband” could do, but wouldn’t fulfill the girls fantasy? If this is the case, then I would think that all men should worry if their wives are thinking this way! Please feel free to comment and give your own views on this “open marriage” theory………

    Reply

  • qflux

    September 22nd, 2016 at 12:21 AM

    PREACH my man! That was very well said.
    These comments are damn ironic. The “peace and love” crowd somehow spinning it that not being comfortable with your WIFE OF A DECADE going back to Sex and the City weekend hookups mode is “unevolved”. And even more insanely that we should accept this because we are the “provider and protector and… ” (schmuck) and now she is ready for some “superior genetic material” due to her “primal urges” (<- WTF?!)
    And this is based on "science". Because in ancient times I am sure that the "protector" who settled in and raised the family didnt fly into a (quite likely legal) homicidal rage once the wife started "seeking superior genetic material". The theory makes *no sense* and it isn't widely substantiated. ALL of this is based on ONE researcher and ONE book.

    Reply

  • Rory

    October 15th, 2019 at 3:33 PM

    Qflux- These ideas are widely supported by an array of scientific studies. Just because you only saw one quoted doesn’t mean that is all that is available. You are letting your own biases determine your conclusion rather than openly considering the multitude of evidence available on the subject.

  • Tyler

    July 21st, 2015 at 11:27 AM

    Hello. My heart goes out to you my friend I have had the pleasure to be in love with the most beautiful girl who ever lived for the last year now. Just last week she confided her fantasies which include sex with other men and her wish that i can be there and participate etc … Barf. I am devastated that I am obviously not enough and the thought of another man touching her and knowing her desires for that has ripped my heart out. I would do anything for her but not at the extent of risking me walk out. I beg of you to solemly think about this and be ready for the outcome. I know if my GF choses to do this i will be packing my things instead of being there. I have no judgement on her for desiring this only the hurt i feel for a year wasted on someone i thought was my soul mate. For us it can not have a happy ending. Good luck and know you are not alone

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  • Sam

    July 21st, 2015 at 6:36 PM

    Zo,
    Ex – NFL, hot wife… conjures a picture. Not necessarily accurate picture but a picture none the less.
    I agree that you don’t have to explore her desires with her. It can just be “no”… “because I said so” if you choose. You probably won’t achieve any real clarity of her nor she of you if that’s how you choose to communicate but that is between you two and totally your choice.
    Everything I said I exaggerated so that you could reflect. If I say temper tantrum, you know what that means to you. It may be where you just go silent. It may be where you get that “don’t F with me look”. When I say tantrum it means whatever you do to shut her down. Only you know how that works in your relationship but you did shut her down.
    “I’m just not one those people ~ I accept that, and my counselor says that’s just fine and I shouldn’t be forced to find out why ~ not sure I agree with that. Why would you not want to understand what is driving your wife to feel this way.
    You’re dead set in how you feel about “no open marriage” and I agree with you!!! I DO AGREE WITH YOU! I’ve only been open minded in fantasy over these 32 years, NEVER in reality. We’ve actually discussed reality but haven’t taken that step yet and who knows if we ever will.
    When I presented my wife with the research I’d done on Sperm Wars and hotwife lifestyles and asked if she had experienced feelings of desire and attraction for other guys throughout our relationship, she said “sure”. When I asked her why she never brought it up she said that “she never thought it was an option” (which back then it wasn’t ~ still not completely sure it is) but then went on to say “besides, we were having sex all the time ~ it was a desire but never a need.”
    I think that was a VERY important statement. We still have sex a lot but back in our thirties it was nearly daily. If your wife is in her thirties her sex drive just shifted into high gear… while if you’re like a normal guy yours might be in decline. That’s VERY important to pay attention to. If she is in overdrive and she’s not getting what she needs at home, other guys start to look attractive. I’m not saying that’s the case but it has been known to happen and it IS a big deal to women.
    For most of our marriage I’ve had a stronger drive than my wife but there was a time in our 30s that she wanted more sex than I did. If I wasn’t horny at the time then I would just please her. I never made a big deal of it. Just a couple of times a week outside of the times we had regular sex I would just find her somewhere in the house… anywhere… and give her an orgasm. It didn’t matter what she was doing… I removed her from the activity and made her take a “sex break”. She gave me a hard time… “I’m busy” the first time or two but after that it didn’t matter what she was doing… she’d take a break with no hesitation.
    Try grabbing your wife in the middle of the afternoon and just giving her some attention… all for her… you just please her… and when she’s had hers you just kiss her and go back to what you were doing. It blows her mind. It lets her know that you care about “her” sexual needs. Don’t discuss “why” you just did that ~ “because you looked like you could use an orgasm” is a good response. Make it a habit. She may stop having fantasies about other guys. Oh wait, she won’t quit having the fantasies but she “might” no longer desire to make them a reality.
    Bottom line: figure out what is missing and fill that gap. She doesn’t need other guys. They seem exciting. They seem exciting because she isn’t getting “something” at home ~ if the physical need for sex is satisfied and it’s not just ho hum “loving” sex all the time, that might be what she needs.
    That’s important because one of the other things my wife mentioned about why she didn’t ever broach the subject of another man or cheat on me is because she says that our sex life never got boring. As I’ve said we played out role play scenarios every month or so with toys and movies pretending to be other people or with other people I suppose. During these role plays we had “single sex”. That’s the sex you had before you got married. The wild, possessive, passionate, raw, nasty, hard sex. The way we couple during fantasy play is nothing like we do when it’s just us playing with our connection.
    I was going to say that I have no idea how I got so lucky to have this great relationship all these years, but I’d be lying. I’ve worked at it. I’ve made it exciting. I made her not want other guys by giving her what she wanted… even when she wasn’t telling me. I built props (fake guys) for us to have threesomes with. I invested time into listening to her fantasies and then seeing if I could find a movie or a toy that resonated with that fantasy so we could role play it and make it as real as possible within our closed marriage.
    When I really think about it I think that has been the key to a very happy journey laden with frequent sex from an exuberant spouse. An open mind, a willingness to discuss her fantasies and then a willingness to make those fantasies come true to the best of my ability. It’s always been about pleasing her sexually and in the process I found myself pretty sexually gratified also.
    Again, best of luck to you both.

    Reply

  • Ann

    August 17th, 2015 at 11:20 AM

    This reply seriously made me cry. The things you do for your wife are things I want so bad. I’ve told my husband this. We’ve been married for 14 years with 3 amazing children. But our sex life is just ok… I’m in my 30s and my sex drive has increased alot and his has declined. I don’t think he will ever just give me pleasure for just me. Ive tried my best to be open with my needs but it falls on deaf ears. I’ve been researching on how to bring up having an open relationship, which brought me to this thread. What you’ve said makes so much sense, and if I had what your wife has I probably wouldn’t be in such need. I don’t want to end our marriage and I don’t want to hurt my husband, but I don’t know how to make it better. My need to feel desired is so strong it hurts. I’ve begged him many times to be more romantic and spontaneous,but there is very little effort. I try so hard to please him, he says he’ll take me out and he’ll give me attention, but then never actually does. I’m tired of asking and crying to him. I don’t know what else to do. Life is short and I don’t want to live in regret. I want to feel satisfied in all aspects of life and marriage.
    So. Just to say your wife is very lucky to have such a understanding, attentive man. If all of us were that lucky.
    Maybe I’ll send him your response, and be like, this is what I need! Lol

    Reply

  • qflux

    September 22nd, 2016 at 12:29 AM

    It’s ironic because you just want your husband to want YOU, but the guy you’re replying to *very clearly* wants his wife to want others. Read the posts more carefully. Code is “hotwife”. So really, you two have nothing in common.
    Your husband is taking you for granted. An open marriage isn’t going to fix it.
    Here is what will happen. He will either divorce you (which would be good really), or he will capitulate. You will then meet some “amazing guy” at work, who will give you what you want, and then YOU will divorce him (which would be good really).
    IMO the honest thing to do, and the thing that will give *you* the most peace, is to issue this ultimatum NOW. And seriously.
    NOT “open marriage”. But “I don’t want an open marriage, I want a husband who loves, appreciates and desires me. And makes me FEEL desirable!” Offer counseling and put on the table that if you have to, you WILL leave. And if it doesnt work, woman up and leave.
    It’s 1000x easier for women to find another guy. MEN (actual men) man up and leave when in your shoes and their prospects of ever having sex again are FAR FAR lower than yours.
    In nearly ALL cases “open marriage” is code for something *being broken*. It’s just people don’t want to see it.

  • Emmad

    July 22nd, 2015 at 5:49 PM

    hi nice one here really interesting

    Reply

  • Passer-by

    July 31st, 2015 at 10:29 AM

    Hello everyone,
    Interesting thread, & I’m commenting because this is relevant to what is going on in my mind a lot of the time.
    By way of intro, I’m Indian, & my wife have been married for close to 10 yrs now (add another yr & a half when we were dating). As often happens, our bond was very close the 1st 4-5 yrs of our marriage, post which things have cooled down substantially. We’re still attached to each other, but that’s probably about it. And I dont even remember when we last had sex – probably around 4 yrs back. Even then things were sort-of fine, & we’re blessed with a lovely kid too…
    Over the last 2-3 years, I’ve begun to feel that things are not what they should be – and that I am not that old that I should be wasting my life like this … I get attracted to other women but am forced to keep my instincts under rein, as my wife is a rather traditional sort … I had once gingerly asked her about opening up her marriage, the look on her face has since dissuaded me from even broaching the topic with her further :P
    I am myself absolutely free to let her have a good time with other men too. Live & let live, is my mantra.
    One might ask me why I married if this was my outlook in life. To be honest, it wasn’t so 10 years back..if it had been I would certainly not have married… people change with time, I have changed too.

    I was just wondering, when one of the partners in a marriage wants to open up the marriage, & the other does not … what transpires? would be great if people could share some experiences here.

    Reply

  • louis

    September 7th, 2015 at 11:27 AM

    It doesn’t matter if you both agree to a “open” life style. The danger is, as I am going through it, is “falling in love” with the lover.

    Reply

  • Sam

    September 8th, 2015 at 1:15 PM

    Ann, I’m not sure you were talking to me but since I’m the only one who discussed how to please your wife and entertain her fantasies, I suspect I may be the guy your comments are directed to. I actually feel bad for all you gals ~ the hottest thing I can personally experience is to watch my wife lose her mind sexually… I want to see that over and over. Ann, since you are the woman ~ bringing up an open marriage (you get to have another guy is what you’re really saying) is going to probably have the same impact on your husband as it did on this original poster as well as the guy Zo, I was talking to. I would expect nothing but a big bag of hurt feelings if you ask for another man ~ because you’re telling him that he isn’t enough (which at the time he isn’t being) but could be with the right motivation? Additionally, are you intending on asking for an “open” marriage where he has the option of playing with other women too? How are you going to feel about that? What if he makes time for another woman when he wasn’t making time for you? What about when one of those women start infringing on your “wifely” space? Many things to think about. I think based on your conversation it all starts with honesty ~ scary 100% honesty. Don’t say “I want an open marriage”. Do say “I want more sex”. Explain to him: you don’t seem to be interested and it’s driving me crazy… driving me away from you… making me resent you… making me think of asking to go outside the marriage to satisfy my needs… I don’t want that… I WANT MORE OF YOU… “can you help me out?” ~ “Maybe you can do something for me even if you aren’t horny?” Through honest conversation WITHOUT any yelling or blaming you might see some progress. From those conversations you might find him willing to be more attentive or you might find that he’s not opposed to an open style relationship. Only you know what you’re really up against. I’d just say that you should try REAL honesty…. tell him all the parts where you “think” but don’t act because his inattention is driving you insane with desire. For extra partners ~ a pair of shorts with a pillow U-inserted in the leg holes, a plate weight in the rear area and a toy zipped into the zipper makes for an excellent third. Wish you the best.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    September 11th, 2015 at 12:30 PM

    My! All the frustration and trauma people go through in Life being sexually focused on the one most important “nutrient” the physical and emotional body requires for health, being well, belonging, giving back to society the essence of physical Life(One’s children), and in all else, living the way this flesh body is designed to live, responsibly and freely in the daily need for sexual satisfaction!

    This forum was returned in my search for “looking for a wife who loves sex.” My darling of 17 years left this Life two years ago after a three year devastating illness and near complete separation from me.

    Now I’ve tried in vain for two years to find a lady, or ladies who desire and need and can commit to responsible sexual relationship with me and perhaps other lovers with integrity of and for each other lover’s full knowledge and appreciation and involvement with any sexual relationship each has. The idea of Polyamory family comes into play here, since it defines the sexual and emotional boundaries committed lovers always must have to know that each family member has a home where they have the belonging all people must have to know they are “home.” That home boundary also defines moral well-being. In monogamy, two people, whether they are lovers or not, “home” defines what each identifies from their beginning as the place each desires the other to always be available inside of.
    I’m a farm boy. 70 years ago my parents conceived my body and in a few years on their little country farm I discovered that I was “Home” there. The way I discovered it was that I rejected my parents and went to other parents of my friends to get what I thought my parents were not supplying me – the home and training that I wanted in my own family that their dysfunction in their home was not teaching me for the family I hoped to have.
    As my first marriage panned out over 27 years before my children’s mom decided she was married to the wrong husband, and she was from her self-centric perspective, I discovered that I was acting in the same dysfunctional family and marital ways my parents’ example taught me, and, although the sex with my wife was quite good and she never, well, almost never, denied any type of sex and intercourse I asked for, our sex never fully satisfied me.

    In this discussion it is very evident how jealousy lies at the core of marriage. Over the 28 years since that act of infidelity, and during that time I also dry-humped with another lady at work, and the marriage with my deceased wife who I stayed true to, I discovered that sex and intercourse with multiple lovers is both natural and good healthy relationship nutrition – IF – clear boundaries for the lovers are clearly defined and accepted, and discussed when anyone has questions.

    In my quest to define the relationship hopefully one or more lovers come to live with me in, one fairly recent development for lovers who desire to build life-long family together is the relationship agreement. It can be formed to be a court-legal document, but the most effective ones are private. One interesting part of this agreement is the application where the lovers define clearly their sexual desires and even fantasies so that the other(s) understand the desired sexual satisfaction and at least can help achieve it for each family member.

    The best part of this relationship agreement is that each lover has full right to bring up discussion for change, for asking about the other(s)’ accountability, and to work with each other member to build the family and satisfaction of each member.

    Now, religion (Sigh)

    In these years since my first marriage in a church, for a church and because of a church, there have been questions about what role religion has in sex, family, children, health, and all else. Sadly, the community that religion demands its members support, although from one religion to another this community has vast differences, always fails to give autonomy to individual families. Even the religions that say they support modern departure from traditional family relationships still mandate strict adherence to whatever form of departure they happen to support, no acceptations allowed.

    So, my take is, “The Hell with religion!” Not with moral and ethical responsibility, just the opposite! Up with moral sexual integrity, down with the promotion of jealousy and emotional baggage that religion enforces on those every religion performs marriage of any flavor for.

    So, in the end here, for those whose spouse desires the experience of sex and/or intercourse with lovers not now in the committed relationship, the clear answer on both sides is selfless love expressed as one lady I held out hope for the past year of her being my life mate: “Infidelity is a symptom. Treat the issue as a mutual opportunity to discover and grow together to build a stronger home, together. Allow one another the liberty to digress sexually, and other ways from the expected terms of the relationship, and if uncomfortable, find out and define the discomfort, then work as a family with unbreakable integrity to redefine the relationship if necessary, or repair the breach with stronger bonds of love and whatever modification is required to do so.”

    In the final analysis, it is what our spouse(s) leave on our grave marker that counts. Each of us writes that epitaph on the heart(s) of one’s lover(s). They merely transfer to the grave marker.

    Reply

  • Golden

    September 19th, 2015 at 2:39 PM

    Sounds like she is ready to venture into a whole new world. If you are secure enough, you will agree and offer to come in as a back-up. Many opportunities if you relent.

    Reply

  • Earl

    September 25th, 2015 at 8:22 AM

    My wife told me we now have an open relationship and started seeing some guy. She says I agreed to it, but once it began, I told her I can’t stand it and will never be OK with it. She claims it’s not cheating because she told me what was happening and doesn’t want to give up her guy. Our sex life has been non-existent in recent years and I accept blame for that, but I want to work on us. I want to make things better and stay together, and that can’t happen until she gives up her guy. She says she still loves me and doesn’t want to break up our family, but since she was deprived of sex for so long, she thinks she’s entitled to seeing someone else and I should be OK with it. I’m not OK with it. I’m devastated every time she leaves the house and she knows this, but does it anyway. Part of me figures I need to be patient and let her work through things. In the meantime, though, I’m dying inside. Is there any hope for pulling this marriage back together?

    Reply

  • Zo

    September 25th, 2015 at 2:31 PM

    Hey Earl don’t give up hope. Stay optimistic. Reality is that the only person that really knows is your wife. Things will not progress until she figures out what she really wants. Because she feels deprived of sex, chances are that she’s become attached to this new guy. It’s like giving up chocolate for 3 years and eating a Godiva bar. It can become addictive but after you start gaining weight from eating them everyday, you start to rethink eating them. Cause and effect.
    I can only speak from my experience as my wife was lusting after a coworker and decided to use the “open relationship” as an excuse to fulfil that desire. I flipped out at first but after a few sessions with my “counselor” aka psychologist I agreed to it. We set ground rules and I fooled myself into feeling “okay” with it but after a week I felt the same way as you do right now. My “counselor” helped me to understand that sitting idly by while she went out to have sexual relations with another guy was not healthy for me. So I found a “friend” to spend time with and discovered that it was very different than I ever imagined. What’s the best part of a relationship, the discovery. Where are they from, what do they like, getting to know their personality.. all of that kept my mind from what my wife was doing and I really had fun with the “other woman.” I started having so much fun until 1 month into it my wife came to me and said that she believes that we may need to rethink our newly open marriage. When I inquired as to why she replied with 2 things that stood out to me..
    #1~ “I haven’t seen you this happy in years,” to which I replied with, “I haven’t changed at all but you notice me again.”
    #2~ “I see you smile when you receive text messages from her.”
    My summation is that women want men that other women want. I believe that’s an inherent trait that they possess by nature. It’s not easy Earl. It took a tremendous amount of effort for me to go out and attempt to meet another woman for I clutch my vows. It was challenging to find a woman that would embrace my situation and be comfortable with it. It’s much easier for women but there are vehicles for us men as well. We both agreed to mention to our “counselors” that we’d like their assistance with transitioning back into a monogamous marriage. It’s been successful thus far. She’s been more affectionate than ever, moring caring than ever, and more loving than ever. Could it have been that she just wanted to prove a point albeit extreme.. maybe. Maybe she wanted to sow her wild oats. Maybe it was a midlife crisis. Maybe it was simply a lustful scene that needed to be fulfilled. Who knows. I do know that the weird part for me was cutting off my relationship with “the other woman.” She completely understood and gave no grief but this experience has really helped my self esteem. I love my life and I love my wife but in the end if things don’t workout… life goes on and I still have options.

    Hope it helps and I wish you much luck.

    Reply

  • Sco

    January 5th, 2016 at 1:55 PM

    Right on Zo! That’s what it takes her seeing you having a wonderful time with another woman. I’ve been to so many sites trying to see the woman’s point of view on this subject. But I guess it’s even with both sexs. I’m so glad I never married.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    September 26th, 2015 at 6:10 AM

    Ann & Louis – I’m back to read over “Zo’s” response today. Then I backed up to my first response and saw your fascinating remarks.

    Louis, if falling in love with another lover is making you concerned, then take a good look at why you are your wife’s lover too. Sharing intercourse with people you love is the only intercourse worth having, so go ahead and fall in love. Just don’t fall out of love with your wife. All three of you deserve and need for you to be your wife’s lover first, then when her libido and need for the newness of intriguing sex that another lover provides happens, love her enough to encourage her to go, but at the same time do what your new lover does to attract you, for your wife. Share with your new lover the ways she makes you feel about sex is encouraging you to remember the erotic fun you first had witth your wife and you are now sharing those sexy fun things with your wife to keep your family healthy. If your new lover is jealous and wants to pull you away from your family, share with her that her desires for you are the same as you and your wife’s desires were at first, and need to be now to maintain the home you built together.

    Destroying family and home instead of making them better is like junking a good race car just because the starter failed. The engine is still in fine shape, as is the rest of the car, so why let a little, but key part take the focus away from a fine work of functioning relationship just because one part is faulty?

    Your new lover is the new starter! Her erotic sensations are doing for your libido just like what your wife once did, so be the lover both lovers need and deserve, but allow your new lover to be free to see herself fully capable to attract a lover who will be her commited life mate as you are your wife’s husband for life.

    Ann, five years ago a dear lady re-entered my life unexpectedly some seven years after her husband left her for a lady who worked for him. My lady friend had a new lover who was incapable of sharing intercourse and he also was taken from her suddenly due to previous legal issues. As my renewed friendship with her had me doing almost daily handy man work with her, I asked her if she would think about sharing sex with me to help fill her sense of loss of her lover while he was absent. She shared my offer with her lover, and he was fine with this, especially as he was unable to give her intercourse. She was my lover for about four months until she had to move. For her, I gave the attention that you yearn to have from your hubby. With two marriages that totaled about 39 years at that time, I gained a clear idea of what you good wives desire and need for good sexual libido maintenance from us hubbies. If you and me were to meet, Ann, and to share your feelings as you do here, it would be much the same for us as it was for my dear lady friend.

    There’s something else in sharing “maintenance” love. When both new lovers respect their relationship with the life mate(s) one or both have, their love making has liberty to give them erotic bliss far beyond the bounds of jealousy. It is sheer erotic excitement which opens their deepest desires for sexual satiation. It is because no strings are attached. Two benefits can be focused on for these lovers.

    The first is that their life mate(s) would sense and respond to the intense, revived libido each lover now shines with like a beacon in the middle of the night.

    The second benefit from their renewed and intense libido is regaining the excitement for life that new lovers always experience.

    There is a cost, though. It’s purely social, and always comes from religious rulers, like the codified religious morality those self-serving spiritual bullies demand their world suffer under. There is no religion that is not first a social cause, so we all have to deal with the social relationship demands of prevalent religions where we live.

    There is just one morality in sexual relationship that counts, so keep your focus on it, not on moral codes from social origins. That one morality is respect. If you and me were to share love making as part of the relationship you have with your husband, our respect for your marriage would be our focus. Making love together would allow me to “gift” you with the attention and acts you desire that your hubby do for and with you again. This is exactly what I gifted my lady friend with, and her lover appreciated me for providing to pleasure his lover, my friend. The reward for my lady friend was her release from the anxiety of needing the lost lover, and gaining the sense of belonging with a man who loved her with all he is. My friend’s spirits lifted, and her natural glow and vitality were largely restored to the level she had when I first knew her as one of my customers 16 years before, as the wife of a loving husband and mother of three young boys.

    For me, experiencing this intense erotic love making for the benefit and rejuvenation of my lover returned back to me way more sexual gratification than ever I knew with my two wives! Making love to my dear spouses was a joy, but there was a sense of duty and reciprocal sexual gratification. Gifting my lady friend with the love making she craved just for her released my desires for intercourse and opened my heart for a flood of unexpected sexual satiation! In fact, my dear friend said to me after our first intercourse, “You’re the best love maker I have ever had!”

    There is little else in this life that feels more vital and invigorating than for your lover to tell you this!

    My lady friend regained such a sexual attraction that it could be felt! I’m sure she went on to another man who shared the same desire of my heart to gift her with love making maintenance with no possessive jealousy, to keep her sexual vitality strong and ready for her life mate to return.

    Ann, it is my sincere hope that one day soon you will gain this lover friend to assist you to regain your sexual vitality and go on to attract your hubby and revitalize his sexual libido that made him your lover to start with:-)

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    September 28th, 2015 at 9:16 AM

    Regarding our sense of love, being loved, and especially the sexual identity we all have where sharing our sexual identity when we share intercourse with anyone we love and respect, and of course expect to be loved and respected in return with the same degree, is the “HOW” involved in this depth of sexual togetherness.

    How I feel, and you the same, about those we make love with depends on the way I perceive myself to be, both by myself, and with those I share intercourse or even just make love with without copulation. May I ask you, especially you, Ann, when did you last take inventory of how you sexually identify yourself, by yourself and then, together with your hubby, and-or with an added lover you find who gifts you with what you desire hubby to give and be for you? Let me illustrate with an event where a group of lovers are assembled together to share love making in their deep commitment to each one’s spouse, and in this commitment to their spouse, blessing each spouse with the joys of sexual love making with other lovers who share the same degree of love, trust, respect and desire for the wonder and privilege that doing so with other lovers provides. Ann, before you settled with hubby did you know a lover who blessed you with those sensations hubby seems to fail sharing with you? I’m sure some here shared love making with others before committing to some form of monogamy with one individual, so think how each of those intimate libido stimulation providers made you feel at your deepest sexual identity. Be really deep and honest here! It is key to to present feelings of lacking the best fulfillment we can experience with shared sexual intimacy with anyone, in or apart from this depth of committed lifetime relationship.

    Ann, I apologize for picking on you here, yet the beautiful illustration you share with us makes this point more clear and poignant to open our heart for close examination of really who each of us is, sexually.

    My dear, sweet lady friend is a grand mother. Her own childhood was severely marred with dad abandoning his wife and family when she was three or four. Her mom then died when she was 12. For her to go on into her puberty, those intensely sexual awareness years we call “Teen Years,” having various sexual encounters and marrying a man who sexually molested their young daughters, then after several years having other lovers and marrying again, but then he sexually molested her children, developed extreme distrust of my dear friend’s trust for her own sexual identity. That’s one extreme to illustrate this sexual identity, and I hope it’s not yours, Ann.

    But, you do sense that your sexual identity lacks full appreciation and equal quality of returning the loving you gift hubby with from hubby. Ann, you are certainly in good company with many other wives in this!

    With my darling lady friend, and with the beautiful lover who I shared maintenance love making with, and with any lady who dares share sex with me, and to every man as well, we have a solution inside our heart which gives us peace, and sets us free to find and be fully loved by anyone at anytime, anywhere.

    That solution is to be all the desirable sexual being for those we make love with selflessly. Ann, in loving hubby, illustrate with him during any intimate moments you share together and he is actually tuned in to you completely – yes, you just may have your work cut out to get him into this place! – share that you want to know exactly how sexually fulfilled with you he feels, and I mean including intercourse and making love to and with you on every other level and every other way, such as the way he hopes you respond to all his desires for you as his wife, friend and lover, and what you do that attracted him to make you his life mate. This should take some time for it all to come out, so be patient. This depth of communication usually requires time and situation(s) to fully reveal all the details!

    Here, Ann, is where you taking another man for your lover comes directly into our conversation; he, this new lover, represents the hubby you desire. This is the reason for my opening example of a group of lovers sharing their beautiful love making together because each spouse desires their life mate to experience the joys of being fully loved. No one I know of has capacity to be all the desires, sexual and otherwise, of anyone else. It’s the key to so-called unfaithfulness in monogamy.

    So, Ann, if I were your new lover, tell hubby all you have with making love with me compared to all you have making love with him. Be transparent, too! – if hubby desires to be your most intimate confidante’ – because as you share with him what you have with me he will see himself as your lover, friend, and spouse. I hope, dear, that hubby is encouraged here to fully open and be transparent with you about himself and you as his sexual life mate. Ann, I also hope that you and he will experience much more of the being in love together than even when you two feared you would quickly burn up if you had to wait another second to get into each other’s underwear!

    To, and for my lady friend, who laments and suffers massive anxiety over some of her children choosing to be estranged from her, taking dearly beloved grand babies out of her arms, I share the same thing as being the lover who your beloved spouse desires most, while accepting you likely need to find missing parts of that desired love with other lovers.

    Be all the mother, grandma, and lover you are able to be, because you can be all the lover and friend and mom your loved ones need!

    Ann, even if you and me were lovers and friends, for hubby, dear, be all the lover and intimate friend he desires, while you do your best with gaining from him what he desires you, his life mate, to be for him. As I share with my lady friend, “Inspect who you are and who your children desire you to be for their experiencing blessing with you in their life, and, dear, you be all the mom and lady they desire you yourself to be!”

    In time, my desire for my lady friend, is for her to know and experience that being a committed lover and friend with a life mate who respects and honors both her and her children is the only thing standing in her way of being mom and grandma for her beloved children.

    At present time, her focus is to take her children away from their own living into hers. Like most of us, my friend is focusing on things she assumes will solve her sense of abandonment from father, mother, children and grand babies, and with most of her relatives passed on, from her entire extended family. She is drenched with intense anxieties. The one single solution is the same one for us all – to abandon those impossible desires and turn to focus on the sexual identity of our own being, to be the best sexual being it is possible to be, because all our other extended relationships, sexual and not, are centered on who we are as sexual beings.

    Ann, thank you for being transparent with us! If you ever share love with me, these same thoughts will be in the center of our making love together. My desire for you as your lover friend, is that the love we share helps to make you into more the lover hubby desires you to be for him.

    Interesting – a lady I so wanted to make love to selflessly for over a year but gave up on ever sharing any form of sex with just called and we shared about our lives for this last month+ since we went apart. It was hopeful that my gifting her with exactly the love and respect shared here would bring her where she gives herself permission to receive selfless making love with me for the first time in her life. She gave herself sexually to many, many men, starting with fellow skiers on local slopes. Every man used her, some living with and on her support for up to two years, then moving on to their next sexual prey. On my first meeting her I clearly sensed her deep desires to make and be loved for herself, and I shared how I see her need and will selflessly gift her with the love making she needs to know how truly beautiful she is. From one promise for a first date, going to a food forest and parting in the afternoon, to the next, she is too afraid to permit herself to receive any level of intimate sexual loving. Really, she is too wounded to gift herself with a real lover friend, even though she repeatedly said to me that our friendship must be mutual before she allows herself to enjoy sex of any degree with me. I fully agree!

    The dear friend who shared maintenance sex with me is a rare case of a lady allowing herself to receive and give her deepest level of intercourse with a lover she knows respect and trusts with, and she gives him the honor of selflessly making love with her. This selfless gifting of the deepest levels of sexual emotions and receiving the same, makes us know how priceless our being is worth. When my intended lover accepts my offer of love making for her without greed and abuse on my part, like the lady who begged me to make love with her for her first lover in forty years, she will cry tears of joy as we share sex together. Ann, everyone here, this is what sexual loving is supposed to be!
    Bye bye.

    Reply

  • Lenny

    September 28th, 2015 at 1:30 PM

    I had 3 loves in my life. The first two cheated on me. They wanted sex with other men. I married my third love, a 20 year old virgin and within months, we were engaged in group sex with friends and wife swapping with our best friends. That led to FFM threesomes and finally sharing my wife’s best friend for the next 30 years of our marriage. My wife has always been free to date anyone but she prefers woman and only in a threesome with me. Our girlfriend and myself dated others. I stopped after I fell in love with one and almost left my wife. Our girlfriend stopped when she got married. Quite honestly, multiple relationships are logistically difficult, stressful and an emotional roller coaster. You cannot be in two places at once so every minute you spend with one woman is a minute less you spend with another. Then you have to deal with insecurities and perceptions. You need to make everyone feel comfortable. After 30 years we are now monogamous in our old age. We have been married for over 40 years while all of our family and friends are divorced, even those in open relationships. Our girlfriend married a guy who was in an open relationship and had his wife leave him for a lover. Our best friends had the husband run off with a girlfriend. All of the 8 couples we had group sex with got divorced due to one or, in one case, both falling in love with someone else. You can make all the rules you want. Everyone started with a strong marriage. However when emotions come into play, we tend to make bad decisions. I almost did. An open relationship is a minefield with more mines that fields. It is not guarantee that you will remain married. I am lucky in that my wife prefers women. She tried another man once and hated it. Told me that I will be the only male in her life and she had been true to her word. She also settled on one girlfriend in her life and made sure that it was one who had a crush on me so we both loved her and lived with her.
    There is always someone better than your spouse and even you. We all did not just happen to find our perfect soulmate in our own neighborhood or local club. With an open marriage you increase the odds of a problem because both of you are having sex with others. Sex produced Oxytocin which is a hormone that emotionally bonds a couple together. You may have rules like no dating your friends or break it off if you develop feelings. My two first attempts at an open relationship found both women dating my friends and falling in love. So much for the false sense of security of rules. Rules give us the illusion of being in control but when you meet someone who is so much better than your spouse and loves you enough to not want to share you. You start to wonder why not leave your spouse?

    The other problem is that it is far easier for women to meet new guys. They can go out every night and find someone to have sex with. Men cannot do that and after a while you get jealous because your girlfriend / wife is having sex with a lot of guys an dating a few regularly while you are still cruising bars trying to find one girl to sleep with.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    September 30th, 2015 at 3:11 AM

    Lenny, That is a wonderful example of the transparency good, enduring relationships have to be based on to last all through the temptations to end the one relationship witth the life mate companion we all want in the end!

    Thank you so much, sir!

    Perhaps inadvertently, Lenny, the experience you and your lovers knew with those sexual relationships added to the relationship you and your life mate perfectly illustrate the point about respect and integrity being key to sharing any sex or love making in addition to one’s lifetime spouse. Those sexual encounter experiences you share with us here make it clear that in polyamory or monogamy, and especially with so-called “swinging” couples, first and foremost the couple committed for life companionship to each other can only stay together through all the temptations when each spouse is transparent in every emotion and thought and experience, sexually and otherwise, with the spouse, and with every intimate companion added to the committed relationship.

    Monogamy, today, soon ends for the high percent of marriages just because one or both spouses does not practice transparency and respect and integrity within the heart and with the intimate lover(s). Lenny, what if in each sexual relationship you shared, and your dear wife had with her lovers, instead of the relationship being a quest to find and engage in erotic dallying to tease that wander lust desire we all have, there were in your hearts first the respect and integrity to gift each other with those awesome experiences, and keep it clear verbally and in focus during all sexual encounters that your end goal is to honor and respect your own lifetime relationship besides also maintaining the exact same for the one sharing your whole being? You may keep the answer to yourself, but would each awesome lover you shared this degree of integrity with be focused on making the sex and love making shared with you a bonding element that helped build stronger relationship and commitment with your wife?

    Our social chaos today is caused by our lack of respect and transparency in all our thoughts, acts, words and relationships, with spouse and even our own self. We are created in a state of innocence, What then takes our innocence away is Deception, even just being silent to our self and to others about the feelings and desires we experience. Lenny, and Ann, to have desire and emotion for sex and intercourse with others beside your life mate is common to all. What is not common is sharing the complete thoughts and emotions of those desires with our life mate(s). If we enjoy family integrity with two or more life mates, it’s the same as with one spouse; respect and integrity to honor both each other and the life time companionship is key to staying the course of life together.

    A really awesome illustration that came my way a few years ago is a DVD record by the current and past members of a commune started in the 60s. The children of those sex and love making experiences have a wide range of living experiences. What caught my attention is those children who now are grandparents who remember their childhood with deep appreciation for the fact that who their father is really does not change who the being they are now is. Instead, the life they have is focused on the respect and integrity each of their forebears maintained for one another throughout the life in the commune, and after leaving, still maintain.

    I was going to make this response short!

    Another more recent record I watched is on YouTube, a BBC documentary of a tribe very far remote from our chaotic “advanced” world. The people wear no clothing, have the most advanced sex and love making code system possible, and their community respect far surpasses our jealousy-riddled monogamous deception by light years. How do they do this?

    As each child, who may not know who the father is, grows to adolescence and puberty, he or she marries an older wife or husband, who has older spouses who are all but a few younger girls or boys. Sex and love making with the mature spouse train the young adults in the ways of respect and honor lasting relationship requires. When the younger wives and husbands in this beautiful community find another gal or guy sexually desirable they ask their older spouse permission to stay with the new found lover until they either decide to separate or commit for life. As the two mature spouses communicate about each of their own younger spouses, a combined decision is made. The two younger community members have the full support of their community to live together.

    Let’s all ask, “How different would our own community be should we all live together in sexual and loving family support this way? The only people who do not want this are who choose to be dishonest and rather than be transparent and respecting of all others, greedily prey on others, especially those that can be conned into disrespectful sexual abuse.

    Right?

    Reply

  • Madison

    October 1st, 2015 at 4:54 PM

    I recently found out that my wife cheated on me. We’ve been married for 13 years and together for 18. We have two children, under 10. She deliberately lied to me to see this guy–a handsome, big doctor. We’re both on the smaller side, her especially, so this has been hard on my self conception. She told me she was going to a going away party but was actually a date with him while I stayed home with the kids. I’m not perfect either. I had a one night stand that I had to tell her about and I spent some time in Amsterdam five years ago, with two nice ladies. So, while I was hurt a great deal, after the initial reaction, I didn’t really have much reason to complain about what she did. I figured my mistakes made it possible to forgive hers and asked her as much. Still, it must have bothered her to hear about Amsterdam. I’ve also always told her I’d be interested in a MFM threesome. For many years. She always said no. No way. I lost my job almost four years ago and have been working part time and taking care of our kids. I’m now fully employed but only since the summer. Over these last four years, and certainly before, she says that I’ve neglected her and mistreated her. I have a lot to answer for, and clearly she had “no reason to say no” when she went out. We even took to sleeping in separate beds because I stay up late and she gets up early every day to run. She has a hard time sleeping. In any case, I took the whole incident as a real wake up call. I let her tell me about what happened, even the naughty details. I was immensely turned on and the sex was terrific. I asked her to tell me about her desires and if she wanted to do it again. I think because of Amsterdam though she started to feel confirmed in what she did and why she did it–that I had neglected and mistreated her and didn’t desire her, didn’t make her feel wanted or beautiful. So even as I confessed to my own desires for her to do it again, while having sex with her, I didn’t realize that I was inadvertently encouraging her. Part of me wanted her to do it again–but then I’d get angry. She told me how much bigger he is and I lost it. Then she started saying that she wanted to see him again–she works with him. Soon she was telling me that they told each other that they’re still interested. After our first marriage counseling appointment, she told me that she had a date with him. While we’d wavered between divorce and rules for dating other people the previous weekend, we laid down some rules. I quickly regretted agreeing to the rules, though she was the most sexually aggressive I’ve ever experienced with her. I tried to tell her I couldn’t really do it, let her go out with the same guy again. I was so incensed that she actually made a date that I told she’d have to get her own babysitter, that I couldn’t sit home with the kids while she did that again. She flipped. It was only after I threatened divorce and dividing the equity did she say that she wouldn’t do it. I know that wasn’t the smart thing to do, but I was desperate and in a serious state of stress–everything effecting the kids, too. She just wouldn’t consider me or the kids at all. I tried to talk to her about her desires–but while I am and was turned on by it, I couldn’t and didn’t ever give her uncoerced permission. It was always “do it or we’ll divorce” from her. So, we’re in a calm state now, for the most part, but she won’t really talk to me–I think she fears that I’ll badly react to anything she says, but I do want to talk. It’s not really a marriage that would support an open relationship, at this point, and I have not been comfortable for her to see the same guy again. It’s been over a month like this and while it’s calming down, mainly, I feel like it’s a calm that will work towards her saying that she still wants to see him. She refused to unfriend him on facebook because he’s a “friend”–more concerned about what he might think than about my feelings. I know jealousy is evil, but I understood her desires and that she did it. I can accept that, even if it makes me question myself. I’m trying to do the things she says I’ve neglected but I see her biding her time until she can either figure out how to do it secretly or openly with my permission. I’ve tried to let her but I feel like a second date with the same guy is just a recipe for disaster for my family. For me. I’m kinda rushed writing this–she’ll be home soon–and I don’t think I’ve done a good job of summarizing the whole situation, but the jist is here. It would be good to hear any comments or suggestions.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    October 2nd, 2015 at 12:58 AM

    Comments here are fascinating!

    After years of looking for good, lasting relationships with three and more lovers, it’s rewarding when experiences like the one shared on this site . . .

    morethantwo.com/polyamory.html

    . . . are discovered.

    Kind hearted conversation about the sexual desires and other intimate factors between three and more lovers are the same as for monogamous families. Here the three share mutual transparency and override any jealousy by sharing every thought before taking action. In Madison’s case, the relationship both spouses have is abusive. Neither respects the other enough to discuss desires before acting on those temptations. They have a dead relationship, essentially. It’s time for both to come to a state of honesty in order to rebuild any former integrity in their marriage. Humility is lacking in both.

    Reply

  • Madison

    October 2nd, 2015 at 2:25 PM

    ClaudeA,
    That’s kinda harsh but probably true. I’d like to know what you mean by a “state of honesty” and “humility,” if you’re willing to respond. I’m interested and I am more than willing to take steps to save my marriage. Thanks.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    October 2nd, 2015 at 4:55 PM

    Thank you, Madison.

    Yeah, it’s a wake up when someone who really doesn’t know you and all the details that make you shares an opinion of you!:-)

    I’ve got my share of slaps there! But, reality is that my perception about who I am is darn biased, so I learned to value others’ sharing what they see about me. In the case you share, Madison, take a deep look into your motives to go screw a lady without first asking your wife for her advice and permission. She did have expectation that she is the only lady you’d stick it to, right?

    Now, look closely at her retaliation screw job. Was it in her mind to retaliate? Or, was her temptation because she lacks some level of perceived respect and attention expected from you? Yeah, that’s harsh, too!:-)

    What made you go out of your bedroom to get a strange piece? That’s where we have to listen for you to either make excuses, or cough up the real reason:-) I’ll share why I went out for strange nookie; I was bored to tears with constant daily sex in my bed because of a dozen mixed emotions that stemmed from my disrespect with my first wife. Five years later she Divorced me after I told her, largely because I still practiced disrespect for her and our relationship, by verbal force to demand performance beyond her physical limits with her support of our family and my messed up thoughts and reasoning. Learning the real reason I was such a bastard husband and then spending the rest on my existence painfully replacing those self-respecting habits with selfless loving ones opened my heart and eyes to a world of hurting, self-disrespecting and others’ disrespecting people. It’s why I found this particular discussion as my quest for loving life mates uncovered it.

    I recently experienced love making with two ladies together who love each other. Their first desire with our sex was to be sure each other had all she needed from me first. The older lady had not had a man make love to her since her hubby died many years ago, and for their 37 years, he was impotent. She cried when we shared love that night.

    Madison, train your heart to seek out the best for your wife. Ask her what she considers as best in every way, and get her assistance to do all you can to make it so for both her and your relationship. That may well mean she desires another man to do her. Work out mutual respect and the way for that to be something which strengthens your relationship and respect for and with her. Otherwise, jealousy is sure to find a way in and destroy your love together. If you desire to make love with another lady, gently share your feelings and never justify it with excuses. Your, nor your wife can be all either of you desire sexually, so share that, and share the reasons against sharing sex with others to the point you agree to be monogamous, or carefully, respectfully learn to include others in your bed with both of you.

    Mutual respect cannot be too strongly emphasized. Mutual honor is equal to mutual love. It may feel harsh, Madison, but the life reward is a friendship that weathers everything because you two desire it to, together.

    Reply

  • madison

    October 3rd, 2015 at 12:40 PM

    ClaudeA, thanks for your reply. As for the reason I had sex with … three other women, one was a stupid drunken lack of judgement, something that I shouldn’t have done because I was married and because of the other woman was. It was clearly a choice I made and it’s not something I make excuses for. I really messed up and could have lost my job over it. I was attracted to this woman, not so much physically but intellectually. When a chance came, and my judgement messed up, I let it happen–made it happen. I accepted responsibility and owned up to it within months. Not quick enough, I know. But there it is. The other two, well, no impaired judgement there–it was a deliberate choice. I think I felt like it was my last chance to be with someone else, to feel like a man, or to feel attractive to someone else. I also felt like it wouldn’t matter as I was abroad. I was also just an ass about it as I wasn’t thinking about my wife. I lack and have almost always lacked self-control. And , yes, my wife had all the reason in the world to expect my fidelity. As for my wife, I don’t think it was retaliation–as she only knew about the first woman, which was many years ago now, before our children were born. I believe, and she’s told me, that what she did was because she had given up on me–that, yes, that she wasn’t getting attention and respect from me. She had “no reason to say no,” when it happened for her. She still likes him but she doesn’t seem to want to part with our family or to separate from me, except when we’re mad at each other or fighting about all the crap that’s happened. When you say that she “may well mean she desires another man to do her,” I think that’s clearly part of it but while I’d like to believe that I could find it in myself to “seek out the best” for my wife, I’m not sure I’m capable of it. I’ve already made a stink about her telling me she planned a date with this guy, a second date, after I found out about them seeing each other, having sex, once already. I was pretty hurt, am still, and while I can see my way into moving on with her, I’m not sure that letting her have her “freedom” with him is something that I’m comfortable with. If she was interested in exploring other people together, that I might consider. It just seems like she’s done with me, isn’t able to make a break, and has found someone that makes her feel good about herself. We’re both kinda stuck. I don’t want to be the third wheel, or the “one she comes home to,” which makes me feel like a brother or a father, more than a lover or husband. Right now she’s said she’s not going to see him, she’s trying to be here with me, but that she still likes him. I went through all this consideration of should I let her see him before and couldn’t stand it–especially when it was coerced from me: it’s either let me see him or we get divorced. She says I’m controlling her. In any case, I’m not sure that all the fuss I made and ended up saying no to her seeing him can now be erased. Given the way she feels about me, I just don’t feel optimistic about any kind of future for us if she sees this guy again, and then again…. But then why doesn’t she just say it’s over, let’s move on, and be done with it and then she can do what she wants…. Anyway, thanks for your response. It’s appreciated. Take care.

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  • ClaudeA

    October 3rd, 2015 at 7:51 PM

    Madison, such a beautiful sharing you give here!

    Would you consider sharing this site with your wife? One thing she may want very desperately is to know other ladies and men too, experience the sexual issues you both have, and when we come together to be honest as possible, even though this digital gathering allows impostors to do their perverted harm, it does give us a little autonomy which may save some embarrassment and reticence to share key details.

    In any case, Madison, caringly, sincerely and respectfully approach your wife to ask her to help you recall how she and you fell in love, what you each thought about that opened the door to your going on to the wedding, and any other details about your attraction to each other, and why, and what each of you felt and thought during love making when it rewarded each of you with tighter and more deep sense of love and belonging together.

    As you might expect here, the goal is to actually put each of your selves into the same state of relationship and sexual pleasure together as at the time when your relationship held each of you in a strong, near unbreakable attraction for each other.

    This same attraction grip can, and should be yours to pursue for every moment the rest of your lives! In the 42 years of my combined two marriages, this very element of “First”Love” would have held my first 25 year marriage together still, and in the end of my second marriage, in years before my wife passed on, it helped to hold our relationship.

    Madison, at least give it consideration, then, if it seems right, gently open discussion about your early bonding with your wife. I’m certain your grandchildren are going to thank you a whole lot if you return to the love that you first shared!

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  • madison

    October 5th, 2015 at 12:22 PM

    ClaudeA,
    Unfortunately, she’s been very resistant to talking, with me, with her family or friends, even the marriage counselor we went to, once. She refused to go back, as it just makes her feel terrible, guilty, she says. I’m pretty sure she wouldn’t be interested in reading all this–she may even feel I’ve now shared our intimate details too publicly. I’m even hesitant writing this response because of that. I think she knows others struggle with issues like this, though. When I’m not thinking about myself I am concerned that she’s going through all this conflict by herself, not able or willing to talk to others. I try and we had a long, long talk this past weekend. I was calm and patient and non-judgemental, but she reached her limit and got mad at me. I think she’s just unable, so far, to resolve to herself what she should do, as she knows there are risks and/or losses no matter what she chooses. I don’t know. As for you suggestion about how we fell in love, that’s brilliant. The skeptic in me worries though that it may not be enough or that it’s too late or too tarnished. But it’s something, and I will try to envision what those first moments were and how they felt, and ask her in the caring, sincere, respectful ways you suggest. Thanks for your kindness.

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  • ClaudeA

    October 6th, 2015 at 2:33 PM

    Madison, sorry for the late response – setting up marketing for a product line and caring for my own sense of acceptance by people who I admire.

    You’re on the right wave length to step back and release her. Completely

    As guys our mission is to repair, maintain, oil and fuel. We get all tangled up in lady confusion and emotional chaos when we attempt to “fix” their troubled heart.

    She “Knows” her place with you, Perhaps you now have time to apply the “fixing” to your own thoughts and reactions to her? As possible, erase the habits and patterns you developed over the years of your marriage to clear away that clutter and go back to adoring her and reacting with enthusiasm to ALL her thoughts, if she has any to initiate, and tell her, if possible, that your goal and actual work is to regain that original delight in her, whether or not you happen to approve any or all she says.

    Agreement is hard to back out of, but be honest that you are giving her the benefit of you doubting your feelings so that she has more freedom to express her feelings and thoughts with no male domination walling her in. That is the most likely reason she is acting as she does, trying to find a place in relationship with you where she feels and knows she is her own commander. It’s no small task to make this so on your part, since you likely assume you know the best things for her.

    It’s not “letting go,”! Instead, it’s lifting up and on purpose elevating her to a place above your own self-worth, for her self worth.

    She will know your love as she knows your unconditional support for her, even when she has freedom and support to make wrong choices she will regret!

    Hope this helps, Madison

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  • Zo

    October 7th, 2015 at 8:31 AM

    Madison, you may want to consider suggesting that you and your wife seek separate counselors. The pressure of addressing these types of concerns in the presence of a marriage counselor as well as your spouse is challenge for sure. Although the counselors are experts at mediation, people tend to react differently. This forum is interesting for sure but everyone is different. At this point, she holds the cards and she needs to decide the next course of action. I know this because I was in a similar place but once my wife and I went to separate psychologists, we both were able to work on our own issues individually. We only discussed them with our therapists and it was the best thing that we could have ever done. Our marriage has never been stronger.
    Hope it helps.

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  • ClaudeA

    October 7th, 2015 at 11:16 AM

    Zo, Beautiful suggestion. In my case, however, my marriage of 25 years fell into the hands of separate counselors my children’s mom chose to support her walking out on our home and family. The one thought I might add to consider is to make certain whoever the counselors are, their single focus is restoration of the relationship.

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  • Zo

    October 7th, 2015 at 5:24 PM

    ClaudeA, sorry to hear that happened to you.
    I agree 100%. The tunnel focus on the marriage is paramount to the success of the sessions.

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  • madison

    October 9th, 2015 at 8:15 AM

    Counseling sounds like a great idea to me, and I am going myself, but my wife is a different story altogether. She’s not interested. Doesn’t think it works to talk, talk, talk. In fact, this is her general pattern: things seem basically ok, nice and good, almost normal around here, as long as I don’t ask questions or delve too deeply about what’s going on. She says “relax,” “we’re fine,” but there are lingering questions that are unresolved. What are we doing to work on our marriage? Are you talking with that guy? Are you gonna see him? She says she broke it off with him, that she won’t go out with him, but also that she’s still trying to figure out if she wants to see him–this from last weekend. And I see it in her eyes, the far away look she gets. I’m pretty sure not much is going on between them, maybe they’re talking, but who knows. I know that part of me is willing to let her do what she wants, but … I don’t think the relationship we’ve had, or have presently, would support an open relationship. It generally leaves my guts aching to think about it. It just doesn’t feel right to me. We’re not even talking about that as an option at the moment, but it feels almost inevitable that she’ll ask to see him. I hope she wouldn’t do it behind my back, at this point, but who knows what they do or say when she’s supposed to be at work. On the other hand, it feels like she doesn’t want to let me go either, and I’m the one who mainly takes care of the kids. I’ve told myself just make it to the end of October–give her space and time to sort things out till then. But then things come up that lead us to talking around the main issue and there it is again: the big issue–will she or won’t she. It certainly feels unsettled and even as we lay in bed holding each other, closer today than yesterday or the day before, trying to work in the way ClaudeA suggests, there’s this sense that the illusion of monogamy between us is dead, even if we were to stay together. And though I would prefer to work on the marriage, I’m not sure that I can without our commitment to each other. It just feels like it’s all over when and/or if I say do what you want or need to without me. I don’t see a bond between us if she does that.

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  • ClaudeA

    October 9th, 2015 at 11:56 AM

    Madison, to me, maybe to others here, your wife just left the door wide open to you to offer her the best relationship of her, and your lives!

    She is fine with your relation, even though you are not. That’s OK! She is saying to you, I believe, that counsel is NOT needed because – Madison – IT IS NOT NEEDED!

    She is making a huge hint to YOU that YOU right now have a wonderful opportunity to COMMUNICATE with her what SHE would be best sense how deeply YOU love and appreciate her! What R U waiting for, man?

    No counselor on this planet can better counsel YOU how to TALK with your wife in admiration, honor, respect and LOVE so that she finally gets it that YOU NEED her to understand how deeply YOU love her!

    Next time you post here, tell us a bit of how YOU decided to just love her and DO and SAY and BE what she desires for HER husband and Lover and Friend for Life.

    OK?

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  • Sam

    October 10th, 2015 at 9:30 AM

    Zo – I hadn’t logged on for a while. Did recently and caught up on what everyone has to say. What a shock to read your post! WOW ~ really? Congratulations on your willingness to be open minded.
    Since you were SO opposed to allowing your wife freedom, then did, and it worked out to your satisfaction, I have a couple of questions if you would be so kind?
    1. When you had sex with her “after” you knew she’d been with someone, did you find yourself “supercharged”, super lusty, like you had something to prove?
    Reason I ask: We finally pulled the trigger and met with a male escort in Vegas for a threesome. It was hot… not something we want for a steady diet of but we’ll probably do it again occasionally… he was a pro, knew how to interact with me and make me comfortable, she had an amazing time… so it was hot. (First time in 32 years outside our marriage for both… so we were very nervous but he calmed us right down. Recommend a pro for anyone thinking about doing this type of open)
    What I want to know is whether my reaction to it is just pre-conditioned based on all the research I’ve been doing. I’ve been like a 20 year old since we did this. I can have multiple erections and multiple orgasms ~ something that kind of faded when I was late 20s/early 30s. This is without any assistance from pills, never needed them. It’s pure libido… like a switch has been flipped. All I have to do is think of her with him and I get wood and want to compete.
    Just wondering if you felt any of that?
    2. Do you feel closer to her now that you have tried it?
    We didn’t have any problems and offering her the opportunity to be with someone other than me for “just sex” was a topic I brought up so our situations are different.
    But, I still have to ask because for me, having watched her have sex another guy and it not having any significant impact on our emotional relationship seems to reinforce that sex is an important part of our relationship but it isn’t why we are together.
    This event seemed to reinforce for us that our commitment to each other transcends the physical. We can share our bodies with another and it doesn’t affect our hearts. Well, actually it did. I think that fact being reinforced and concrete… (we actually did it, it isn’t a fantasy any more), and we don’t feel any different… if anything we feel more closely connected because we were able to enjoy the event without jealousy and possessiveness… knowing that it was just sex.
    Just wondering what your reaction to these events with your wife has been.
    Claude A. (70) ~ Like what you have to say. You are wise beyond your 70 years young man. I think much of your advise is spot on.
    Here’s my take: Open marriage is not for everyone or even a good idea for most. Most people are too jealous and too possessive of their partner to allow this without grave feelings of despair. The fear that the partner is going to meet someone better or won’t be satisfied “at home” anymore drives an emotion of abandonment and loss even when there is no abandonment or loss.
    If the reason for opening the marriage is ~ “something’s missing” I think the fears above are much more aligned in reality. I think the only time open marriage might be fun, might be a good idea, is when the couple is in a really good space, practicing open communication and the reason for opening the marriage is just for sexual exploration and fun with no emotional ties to the third parties (unless you want a poly relationship ~ and then that’s loving more than one person ~ which even fewer couples could accept).
    My 2 cents… for the penny they are worth.

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  • madison

    October 10th, 2015 at 9:34 AM

    How have I decided to love her, do and say and be what she desires? It may sound pathetic, but I clean the kitchen without complaint, I make our bed, I don’t nag her about picking up after herself… I nagged a lot before about how she doesn’t clean up after herself–it’s no longer an issue for me. That’s the little stuff. I sleep in the same bed with, all the time, no matter what happens, even if we can’t sleep, even if I have to get up for a while to calm down because I’m worried so about what’s going on that my heart won’t stop racing. I hold her in bed, even fall asleep holding hands. We have sex–I’m not sure it’s making love yet–two days in a row in the morning when we wake up. I make the second day all about her, just in case I hadn’t the day before. I ask her to meet me to exercise at the gym, just to be together, and she comes. I look into her eyes and tell her how much three memories of when we first got together still matter to me, that I hope she still has them in her heart, that I hope she’ll open her heart again to me. I let her tell me about her thoughts, how she’s still conflicted. I tell her I love her, that she’s graceful, beautiful, that I adore her hair or this or that outfit. I put on a good face when relatives are here visiting, when we spend time with other people, trying to act like life for us is good and reasonably normal. I try to make myself attractive, to show her I care about my appearance, even when she says, half in jest, that I’m beyond caring. I try to overcome my own sense of inferiority to the lover she had and may very well still have, at least as far as them communicating at work or privately. I don’t hold a grudge about what’s happened, and do pretty well. But I pester her, and “pick” at what she doesn’t want to talk about–what is going on with her, what may or may not be going on with them, whether they’re having a secret relationship. That’s always the worst part of what I’m doing but I just don’t want to be the fool, the one who finds out after it’s too late that is beyond salvage. I try to keep my mouth shut at moments like those, when I feel like I need to know what’s going on, when she says “relax, we’re fine.” But it’s so damn hard, I just want to fix it all right away. We had several good days last week, especially Thursday, but Friday wasn’t so great, as I felt something was up, and found out he texted her, and I wanted to know if more was going on with them. My goal is to keep trying, perhaps failing better at it, for the rest of October. At least. Do and say and be what she desires… I hear you.

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  • Sam

    October 10th, 2015 at 10:02 AM

    Zo… one more thing. The desire to be monogamous isn’t because she “doesn’t still have desires”… it’s because she fears losing you. She didn’t think about that part when she wanted freedom. She didn’t think about how she would feel when the shoe was on the other foot. I’m going out on a limb with you being ex-NFL but somewhere in her little twisted mind, she thought she was hotter than you, more attractive to the opposite sex than you. Your infatuation with the “other woman” made her realize that she isn’t in the driver’s seat and things “could” go terribly wrong over “just sex”. By having an “open” marriage verses a hot wife situation (where she gets to play but you don’t) she was forced to recognize that “wow, you might meet someone and leave her.” Such a shock to most women who are a little self centered to find out that their man is actually attractive to other women and might choose someone other than them to be with.
    Madison ~ Advise to you is to follow Zo’s lead. Additionally, start manning up! Women don’t respond well to submissiveness. There’s some info out there on doing a 180 in your relationship… suggest you try it. Women hate wimps. Women detest a man that won’t stick up for himself. All the nice things you do ~ QUIT DOING THEM. Do only your fair share of the work. Do not be part of anything that supports her infidelity. And if she continues to drive you nuts with the “I can’t decide” you can always turn the tables LIKE ZO and say “I’ve thought it over and I think it’s a good idea.” “You can have your boyfriend BUT I’m going to be seeing someone too.” Then get your own “other woman” and watch her squirm and tell you “we need to close the marriage back up”. I suppose that is manipulative but the bottom line there is you guys need a lot of work and she needs a dose of reality. There isn’t much honesty on her part and you really don’t know what’s going on with her. Until you agree WHAT your relationship means and what you two mean to each other then you will continue to be in emotional turmoil.

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  • Zo

    October 12th, 2015 at 11:54 AM

    Hey Sam, what’s up man. Sounds like you and the wife had an exciting time in Vegas. I attempted to take my wife to a high profile sex club in San Francisco but she made every excuse not to go. I made a suggestion to get a pro for a MFM session and was again met with resistance. Those were red flags for me. They pointed more towards a specific person that she wanted to have sex with and not the excitement of the act as it was originally presented. Some clever little chicanery. I came to the realitization that I didn’t get to where I am in life my not betting on myself so after reading Sperm Wars and conducting more research I agreed to it.
    Your research was not the catalyst to your renewed sexual energy. To my surprise, I found a renewed sense of pride. A need to be superior to “the other guy.” The sex with her is more animalistic as the words, “he can’t do it like this,” often runs through my mind. I thought about saying it a couple of times but new that could be a turn off for her. I have held back many spiteful moves because it wouldn’t add to the experience only detract from it. I do feel super lusty after this whole experience and every time, I feel like the 1st time minus the newness and uncertainty. I know have an appetite to try new things but must keep them tempered. My how things have changed!
    We have become closer than ever. The fear of loss is a powerful emotion. I believe that you hit the nail on the head when you stated that she felt threatened. She was so focused on the facade that she didn’t think about the what if’s. What if I fall for this guy? What if my husband falls for someone else? Does he think she’s more attractive than me? Does he think about her when he’s with me? These are many of the questions that she admitted ran through her mind afterwards. Many of those same questions entered my mind but my counselor helped me to discover that I possess an uncanny ability to redirect those thoughts into positive energy and apply it to myself. I’d keep myself busy with activities that I love to do like golf, basketball, watch a movie, or hang out with the other woman to not think about what she was doing. Once I realized that I shouldn’t try to control the situation and make her feel a certain way… things turned around for me. My grandmother use to say, ” life is going to always give you lemons. When it does, make lemonade!” I discovered that I applied this mantra to every facet of my life except for my marriage. It seems oxymoronic but saying I’m okay starting over sometimes forces the spouse to look at things much differently. It’s unfortunate that it took a challenge like this to make it happen but I’m glad that it did. Also… thanks for your help.

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  • victor

    October 10th, 2015 at 11:11 AM

    if your sex life is already great that is a good thing. that means she is satisfied with you. now just because you are satisfied with a birger doesnt mean you dont want to eat pizza. i believe your wife wants to experience the thrill of sex. and part of that thrill will involve having friends, which you might care for. i dont necessarily believe she will “love” someone just because she cares for them, but she might care for someone. and yes, variety will keeps things fresh. i wouls suggest to start off by only having sex while both are present (3 somes or one watching the other). if you are comfortable, you can proceed to do it on your own, ut honestly i see this like more of a escape than an experience, since the experie ce wont be shared between you 2. also keep in mind that she is a female, and she might be sleeping around a lot, because it is that easy for a girl. not so much for a male. hope i was of any help.

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  • ClaudeA

    October 10th, 2015 at 7:32 PM

    Sam, and Madison – Sam, you’re first here!:-)

    Haha! Well, I might be sharing things beyond my short 70 years, but in these few, short years the intense experiences with love, sex and meaningful boy-girl relationships makes for at least a savvy heart about us people as lovers, friends, and family.:-)

    Sam, I cannot but SECOND your worthy, savvy common sense promotion of balanced relationship to Madison. As I read your response, Madison, I was considering almost exactly the same response Sam shared, as it is painfully clear how your infatuation for your wife is cutting away at your Achilles heel, to sabotage every sense of respect for you that your wife ever had for you, buddy. She did NOT sign up for being your deity! Her desire for a man to make love for and with which led her down the aisle is that same quest ladies always have been on – to find the man who is a man among men, and a ladies man all to herself. The moment you became her little elf to do her beck and call is the moment she lost respect for you, my friend.

    Yep! Madison, go out and make a real, honest friendship with all the other ladies you can find! It will prove to you the one thing you need, and that is your own manhood is what you want it to be for your wife, or, it isn’t. No, don’t F__K ANY other lady – yet! Let yourself be loved by any and all really honest, caring ladies who will share honorable friendship with you, and make no coverup about it with your wife. Also, make certain these other ladies are open and conversant with your wife, so she has no way to imagine things sexually. Make certain your time apart from your wife is honorably accounted for, and have witnesses she knows and trust back you up. As Sam says, it’s the one thing your wife needs to understand about her choice of men to be her husband, and he is VERY desirable to other worthy ladies, AND yet true to her.

    She wants to go get it on with someone else? Awesome, Madison! Like I shared earlier, YOU make clear to her that it is your highest order of respect for her to MAKE her sexual encounter with another man YOUR personal goal so that she has no doubt you love her unconditionally.

    With the one stipulation; YOU get to do the same thing!

    My admonition about jealousy needs a little clarification, here, Madison. There are at least two types of jealousy;

    A. The more common form is greed-based. It demands control of someone.

    B. The less common jealousy is constructive. It seeks to prevent harm to the truly loved one it is focused on. This jealousy, practiced in any form of relationship, asks the one with it to practice selfless love for the loved one(s), opposed to needy love, which is actually a form of greed-based infatuation, because it wants to possess and not lose the target individual to anything or other individual.

    Selfless love seeks to honor, NOT possess nor be subservient to the loved one, but to hold him up in accountability and self-respect. Think of this as the husband who seeks to make his family secure and well maintained with his labor to assure each family member has ample shelter, healthy nutrition, and safety from outside harm, as possible for the husband. That hubby does not need his wife! She needs him!

    Madison, BE that hubby for your wife!:-)

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  • Sam

    October 11th, 2015 at 9:40 AM

    Madison ~ After re-reading… some things from your posts seem clear or somewhat clear “in theory”.
    As Claude says ~ why did you do what you did? You explain a one night stand as drunken stupidity but a stop in Amsterdam as “planned” ~ because you wanted to feel attractive to women? You hired hookers to make you feel attractive? Doesn’t make sense and I don’t feel you’re being honest with yourself. What is the why behind the why?
    You say she “didn’t have a reason to say no”. You don’t say how she came to tell you about the affair? Did she confess or did you discover?
    There is always a REASON to say no unless you have communicated you desire and have permission from your PRIMARY partner. That is the only way OPEN works. Clear and concise, open communication ~ OPEN, TRANSPARENT, everything out in the open. You want to read her texts… look at her facebook… or she you. My wife has all my passwords. That way feelings and emotions don’t get (too much) in the way. There will still be feelings. If the communication is open those feelings while residing a little in the jealousy camp, can be pretty passionate and connecting.
    Your wife states she is conflicted. My assumption that this conflict is hormonal. Read some of the information in the article Sperm Wars which you can find on the internet and you’ll become aware of a bonding hormone a woman’s body secretes when she is with a new lover.
    This hormone can last for 3 to 9 months and can really confuse a woman emotionally. Knowledge is power and knowing that at least in part, hormones might be at play may help you understand her feelings. If you look up the article and share it with her… it might help her understand what is going on and why she feels “SO” confused.
    So after reading your story I think you are just stuck. Stuck about what you REALLY want but not knowing how to get it. It sounds like you actually “want” sexual openness in your relationship. Actually, it sounds like you would like MFM threesomes with your wife as your primary form of outside play from a couple things you said. Sperm Wars will explain that drive too.
    Your wife sounds like she might enjoy a larger penis? Drove me crazy… of course it did. But what Claude was saying is that if you can love her unconditionally, you can take pleasure in her pleasure even if you aren’t the one providing… or in this case, don’t actually have the equipment to provide.
    There are tons of well endowed men that like to play with couples no strings attached. Meet, have some drinks and conversation, have sex… 3 some or you watch, and then go home. Maybe you hook up again and maybe you don’t but there isn’t any emotional bond.
    How do you get on track? COMMUNICATION! Open and honest communication without bitching or blaming. NO statement should be “you did this or that and therefore you are a bad person.” Your dialogue should go “When you… I feel… because.
    “When you say you can’t decide what to do it makes me feel insecure about our relationship because I don’t know if you want to leave or stay and that leaves me in a constant state of turmoil.”
    “When you won’t UNFRIEND the guy I feel insecure because this guy… this specific guy is driving a wedge between us.” “I want you to unfriend him and have no communication with him so I’m not focused on what’s going on with you two and we can focus on us.”
    If you would like to talk about sexual exploration “WITH ME” I would enjoy exploring the possibility that you could have other lovers while I watch or participate. These will be one or two time events and then we’ll find a new guy. I want no emotional ties to the guys ~ if that is what you want? From your statements, it sounds like it is.
    Your issue seems not with the sex but with the guy. That would be a problem for me too. She selected him. He’s a coworker. He’s a doctor. You have every right to be concerned because what she is flirting with isn’t just sex, it’s a relationship.
    ***I’m going to do it or we’ll get divorced. “Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.” She does NOT have the right to coerce you into allowing her to cheat. That is a blatant violation of the rules of your relationship.
    She is telling you that she is going to go OPENLY cheat on your relationship no matter what you think. NOT Acceptable. You guys both cheated so that’s already done. She is the one who wants to continue to not conform to the rules of your marriage while you sort this all out.
    ***”If you do we’re getting divorced and splitting assets.” ACCEPTABLE. You DO have the right to tell her you won’t live with the emotional turmoil of knowing she is cheating.
    I think you must be forceful in this issue: Unfriend and cease ALL communication with your doctor friend or we’re going to have a REAL problem and I’m really considering dissolving this relationship. You don’t have to allow that and HE is really a hindrance to your communication at this time.
    Relationships THAT WORK have rules that both people agree to abide by. The person with the biggest reason for or objection to gets their way.
    It is unrealistic and TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE for your wife to continue to have any contact with this guy if her having contact with him upsets you. Her relationship with him was cheating ~ just like yours was. I assume you didn’t maintain contact with your ONS after you told your wife? Why should she expect to be allowed to maintain contact with this other man. You have to earn back the respect you once had as “her man”. That means PUTTING YOUR FOOT DOWN on issues that are tearing the relationship apart.
    In an open relationship that works, the smallest event or concern in the primary relationship trumps the BIGGEST event or concern in the secondary relationship. “We’re friends, we work together”… NOT ANYMORE! The primaries always have the right to say “NO” I don’t want you to do that and the other partner needs to comply. Otherwise there is no relationship.
    Do continue to compliment. Do continue to help with the house. Do continue to BE A PARTNER… but don’t be taken advantage of. There is a fine line between being a partner and being a b****… Read that 180 thing and see if there are issues where you she’s emasculating you.
    If she is making you a b**** and you’re going along with it… you will find yourself a cuckold and she will be having sex with whoever she wants (without you present) while you clean the house and take care of the kids.
    2 more cents

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    October 12th, 2015 at 3:20 AM

    OK, Sam. Where is tthe lady your wife is with and for you, waiting for Me? I just do not have a clue where to look, or, maybe I’d best trust that she will appear when she overtakes me while my eyes are closed!??

    Anyway, Madison, IF your words here shared 100% of the way things are for your wife and you, and, believe me, our words only reveal about 1% of all the “stuff” we want to share, or 1% of what we try to hide, our words of advice only touch the surface of the solution to your relationship issues.

    After I went to a group of people about a lie my ex made to the Divorce court about my income – she kept my books, and clearly knew she was lying – the team informed her in no uncertain terms that she was wrongo, and she relented.

    Afterward I thanked one member of the team, a retired minister, and his reply will always form the core of my relationship expectation.

    “Our thoughts about others is only OUR perceptions. But, when we go consult with and ask Creator for His intervention, then it is His understanding of BOTH hearts and intentions and desires of BOTH parties that brings REAL resolution, and the RIGHT direction for EACH party to go in.”

    It’s simple; it’s profound. It’s also, the ONLY truthful way to communicate between people with complete confidence that the RIGHT solution will be the FINAL resolution.

    Madison, do this: Eaxamine your core thoughts and compare them with the selfless LOVE that keeps you alive, caused you to exist, and maintains all that you ever shall be. That Living Resource asks you nothing in return for ALL that you ARE!

    Now, with this comparison of your core desires and WHO you are against The Selfless Life Giver Who Created, Sustains and Blesses you with ALL you are, look into a mirror and tell yourself either that you are a liar, or, you are seeking to love your wife SELFLESSLY.

    Madison, you cannot both desire to love your wife selflessly and hold ANY greedy desires about or for her in your core being.

    In the last breaths you draw, Madison, as with us all, we have either admiration for our life’s journey, or we sorely desire we had made changes to our living when we could, but chose not to.

    I once read a life-changing tthought that did change all my focus on this life thing, for me:

    “It is what your friends write on your grave marker that counts.”

    Reply

  • Sam

    October 12th, 2015 at 11:17 AM

    ClaudeA ~ Not sure what your question is. Where is my other woman since she is getting another guy? Maybe you haven’t read my posts but that isn’t what I want. If it was there are numerous places on the internet to find them. We met with another man, a professional, in Vegas. If you want to be that “other man” in an amateur capacity to couples who are out there looking for a man to join them I suggest you try some of the swinger websites on the net. Since Vegas she has had a couple of interesting conversations with a nice young man who is literally half her age on a particular swinging site we signed up for. I’m much more excited about this scenario. It’s a real person who is actually attracted to her for her attributes and not because he’s getting paid a grand for a couple of hours of his time. Just look for swingers, adult dating and the like. You’ll find a site that will connect you to what you are looking for.
    Why no women for me. First reason is I had well over 100 partners before we got married, she stated that she had 6 which probably equates to @12 because they say women just forget the bad experiences… Still and all, we were mid and late 20s when we married so she hadn’t had a lot of experiences when we got married. 2. I enjoyed the experience of watching, participating and then reclaiming her in fantasies ~ Something about seeing another guy with my woman brings out the animal in me ~ in a good way according to her. 3. We decided to test this theory in Vegas and it’s very close to perfect. I’m charged up like a teenager. 3. Contrary to popular belief, just like men, MOST women aren’t bisexual. If she’s munching her girlfriends privates… more than likely she isn’t that turned on by it and is putting on a show to try to turn you on or prove to you how open minded she is. 4. Men can’t really satisfy multiple women NEARLY as effectively as a woman can satisfy multiple men. 5. My wife is not into women and as stated before ~ for a FMF to work the women kind of have to be into each other or someone gets left out. MFM doesn’t require any interaction between the males for all three parties to have a good time and be included. Just a point of prospective.
    Zo ~ Can’t tell you how cool it is to see your story. You walked through the fire and you came out stronger. GOOD FOR YOU! I don’t even know you and I am proud of you… sounds so stupid but after our few back and forth exchanges I could hear in your passages that you are a seeker of knowledge and truth in your life. If you’re confused about what happened you shouldn’t be. I laid it out for you. She found her Alpha protector (still loves him to pieces) but thought the relationship could endure openness because “she loves you so much!” and in her heart NOBODY could ever replace you so why not have various sexual experiences (why she freaked and apologized so much the first time… and again the second time…). Why the reaction to your “other woman” ~ the part of the equation that she didn’t see coming was that “maybe, you could replace her”. When she saw that happening the desire to protect her primary relationship FAR OUTWEIGHED the desire to have other partners. It isn’t that her desires changed… it’s that she saw the possible repercussions of those desires and those were not worth it to her. GUARANTEED that if you had stayed at home while she played and not found your “other woman”… she would still be playing with other guys. As I said, her desire didn’t change. Just her understanding of the consequences.
    You have such an opportunity for real growth right now. Just understanding and growth of your relationship. You set your beautiful bird free and she returned to you… quickly. There is nothing out there that is possibly worth losing you for. This made you happy because it’s how you felt all along… even though you tested the waters and found the current to be calm and the swim refreshing. You guys can REALLY talk to each other now. If there was a question of the level of emotional commitment in either of your minds, that doubt should be eliminated by the actions you both displayed. You’re IN LOVE! I told you that from the first post and the way she apologized and bought you a card. ALL things are possible to think about and talk about and explore (as long as both agree) when you’re in love. Tell each other your biggest secrets, your deepest fears, have a super solid connection! You just proved to each other that the PRIMARY relationship between the two of you IS the most important thing and that both of you are committed to that. Congratulations and I really do wish you a wonderful life.
    Best wishes!

    Reply

  • Sam

    October 12th, 2015 at 11:31 AM

    ClaudeA. After further review of your question I think you’re asking where you find a wife like mine. Well, we met in a club like many did back in the day and evolved into this relationship over 32 years. At 70 you have to find someone who already thinks this way. There are websites for finding dating and sexual friends. Adultfriendfinder is one website you can look on to find a partner for romance, friendship and sex. Swinglifestyle is a site you can look on to find more purely sexual contacts and is where she met the young man she has been talking to. Plenty of fish is another dating site. Hope that helps.
    Best Wishes!

    Reply

  • merry

    October 12th, 2015 at 2:31 PM

    Hmmm. After 25+ years of happy marital fidelity, no kids by choice, my libido has is soaring like crazy. My husband will do anything to me sexually that I ask, sometimes I will have to ask twice. We decided to experiment looking into a third person joining us or swinging. We even found a female to join us a few times. We discussed this for over a year and Yuck on the swinging. But after talking to an old bf on FB, (hubby knows) it has opened a door I forgot I have. I like to have a man (partner) take charge, be dominated in the bedroom. Hubby doesn’t do that.he thinks he does. He tries but can’t get into the fantasy part, the right kind of dirty talking, loosely planning the session. We even found a Dom for me for one year, it was great. The one thing that I really need mentally, emotionally physically he does not deliver. We have looked at videos, me pointing out what I like, read erotic stories that are to my liking. Looked at 101 tutorial websites. I have highlighted passages in books per his request. He is just clinical in his approach. By that I mean if he does by chance have some basic things planned, and things go a different way, he must follow his plan instead of reading my body. I need much more and feel a real void. Because of this. We decided not to pursue a third sue to being scared of stds, but an old trusted bf might be the ticket.
    How do you balance?

    It is something we both approached and what inevitably happens the mans is turned off by it, but the woman wants it. I do love my husband, he has provided a good life for us both, travel, income etc. But now the void I feel is very real and don’t feel I should spend the rest of my life denying myself and sacrificing yet another thing for my marriage. (Like any, of course We both have made some sacrifices, but i have clearly made more and Much larger ones. Women ALWAYs do.)

    HOW,oh how, do you make it fair?

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    October 12th, 2015 at 9:11 PM

    Sam, thank you. Your second read is the correct one. My dilemma with online sex and relationship sites is security.. I just about signed up with NudistFriends but thought to check on their parent company, and discovered severe security breaches with their sharing deeply private details with over a thousand other sites they own and operate, resulting in a many $million court loss, and still this company operates all its thousands of interconnected social sites for people making the most intimate connections.

    I trust the serendipity of making unexpected connections, like similar places as this, not so much focused on making intimate connections as providing a forum for intimate discussions. Two of the nudists’ sites I am member on have similar connection possibilities as here, with decent security risk factors. The people there also share more my own life interests, as well.

    Appreciate you and your sage words, Sam.

    Reply

  • Sam

    October 14th, 2015 at 11:31 AM

    Zo – Thank you for letting me know how the libido and the connection worked in your situation. It is something unimagined previously. My grandmother used to say… ok, it wasn’t my grandmother but it was a sage piece of wisdom that I picked up along the way and it is simply; If you love something, set it free. If it returns to you then it was always yours. If it does not, then it never was. You guys have been free and have chosen each other! That’s a strong, powerful bond. You should be able to discuss just about anything now. Wishing you a rich and wonderful life. Don’t forget to weigh in occasionally. Your experience can benefit others.
    ClaudeA – At 70 you still give a darn about who knows what? How would anyone find out even if you’re across 1000 sites? I assume they are all the same kind of sites so to go to any one of them, you have to be looking for the type of encounter that the site is designed for… 1000 sites just gives you more access to someone who likes what you have to offer and is interested in you. That doesn’t necessarily sound like a bad thing.
    Merry – I don’t understand your contradictions. You say 25 years of happy marriage fidelity… followed by contridictions like “We even found a female to join us a few times” and “We even found a Dom for me for one year, it was great.”
    We hear that “My husband will do anything to me sexually that I ask,” . = “We have looked at videos, me pointing out what I like, read erotic stories that are to my liking. Looked at 101 tutorial websites. I have highlighted passages in books per his request.” But that he’s just not spontaneous enough and can’t ring your bell like you want.
    You bring up not wanting to bring in another man due to STDs but that maybe an old BF might to the trick. I would say the risk for STDs is the same BUT if hubby thinks it’s fine then again, I don’t understand what your question or statement is. If you want to do it and hubby says it’s cool, then go for it if it’s what you need.
    If hubby isn’t cool with the idea, there are things that you wrote that make me think you would be playing with fire.
    1. “I do love my husband, he has provided a good life for us both, travel, income etc.” As written that statement says to me that hubby supports you and your lifestyle.
    2. But now the void I feel is very real and don’t feel I should spend the rest of my life denying myself and sacrificing yet another thing for my marriage. (Like any, of course We both have made some sacrifices, but i have clearly made more and Much larger ones. Women ALWAYs do.)” combined with “no kids by choice” Makes me believe that you might possess selfish and self centered tendencies. I can’t imagine what sacrifices you could have possibly faced that were so much larger than your husband’s, in a relationship where you had no children to raise and it appears that your husband supports you.
    I would just be careful about upsetting your balance. If he doesn’t want you to see the ex BF then I would refrain. If you pursue this adventure I wouldn’t be surprised if he doesn’t go find someone else who doesn’t think that having a husband who will read books and look at videos and do anything else he can do to please her is such a bad husband to have. I would say proceed at your own peril.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    October 14th, 2015 at 5:07 PM

    Thanks, Sam. But, read the statement for what it says, not what you appear to assume it says about me. The facts are that identity and financial data theft are severe penalties to pay for assuming things on, or off line. My eBay, eMail accounts and more have been breached by me ASSUMING my private information was secure. That, man, is damned scary.

    Besides, when you and anyone says things like some guru with insight beyond the shared word, or plays with statements rather than questions to open the mind of the seeker, that advice is pretty useless, because it only applies to the self-acclaimed “guru.”

    People want “answers” as always. But those are always in their heart, not any advisor’s best responses.

    Why? Advisors have just one life, and it is only theirs. Millions have trusted others with their private needs and quandaries, only to discover that the one answer besides admonition to remain respectful and selfless loving of others, is the answer they seek is to follow selfless love and practice self-respect as the recipient of selfless love.

    That’s lots to swallow for this twisted, self-focused world, but it still applies.

    Reply

  • Sam

    October 15th, 2015 at 1:10 PM

    ClaudeA ~ Sorry for getting you all riled up. Wasn’t my intention. I was just pointing out through statement… my question. We personally belong to more than one paid dating or swinging site. We’ve never had any problem with financial information. Almost ALL reputable sites use third party services for their financial transactions. That means that even if they are hacked that the hackers can’t get your financial information. Even in the most recent 30 million member Ashley Madison hack, nobody lost their financial information. We also belong to a credit monitoring service so it’s tough to get over on us but that is a different issue. If you have lost your information in the past, I feel for you.
    I wasn’t trying to be a “guru”. Just asking at 70, why you give a darn about who knows what you’re doing. If it’s fear of losing financial information, that is understandable. But from your statement, that isn’t what you said. You said you decided NOT to sign up “because they share your information with over 1000” sites. NO mention of fear of loss of financial information. And I asked you… at 70, why do you care who knows what you are doing? Then you got defensive and call me a “guru”. I think you might want to take some of your own advice you give to other readers… “read what you wrote” before you slam me for responding to “what you wrote” instead of what you meant.

    Reply

  • Me

    October 20th, 2015 at 7:01 AM

    I’ve read through this and now seeking the same from my husband. What am I missing??? Sex!!! Feel good, great orgasm sex. My husband is older then me and can’t quite keep it up like he used to. When he did keep it up…he didn’t know how to use it to please me. I forget the last time I had an orgasm. The last ones I remember were toys…always using toys to be satisfied. For me, it is just sex. I want sexual satisfaction. I want mind blowing sex and feel good sex. I am wanting what I am NOT getting at home. Why is it that a woman is seeking something else and everyone says, “she’s already got something up her sleeve”. But if a man wants to slide outside of the marriage…he’s a stud. It is so easy for men when it comes to sex. I can lay there when I am in the mood or not in the mood and my husband can have sex and have an orgasm. What about me? I’ve sacrificed for almost ten years of unhappy sex. Isn’t it time I get to enjoy it?? I’ve tried over and over and over to tell my husband what feels good but he just doesn’t seem to listen. It is not feelings…it is sex. It is a desire not an emotion. It is animal instinct…not emotion.

    Reply

  • jan o.

    January 16th, 2016 at 7:10 PM

    Amen!..
    I have been in a sexless marriage for 10 years..well..minus procreating our children.
    Fortunately for population growth it doesn’t take orgasm to conceive!.
    I am a 38 yr old fit attractive woman .my husband does not care about his body..his hygiene..he has no interest in my interest.
    What’s to get “turned on ” with?
    I asked ab an open marriage and he is now talking separation!
    Seriously men! Grow up..
    Haven’t you ever heard the phrase..
    “If you love someone..set them free”.
    Monogomy isn’t always realistic.
    Read the literature..there are mounds of evidence to show that monogamy isn’t natural for homosexuality sapiens.
    Even apes aren’t monogamous.
    However..it does fall in line with the rest of our screwed up patriarchal structures.
    Women’s desire and orgasm is culturally all about boosting a man’s,self esteem

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    October 20th, 2015 at 7:15 PM

    Fascinating read this has become! I wonder what interest brought the Christian lady to find this discussion and instead of allow herself empathy for the people dealing with this, instead unload her religious diatribe?

    Oh well . . .

    This all points to having unshakeable love and commitment in sexual relationship before going outside for sexual entertainment. Actually, to me, it is lack of telationship maturity that is leading most respondents’ comments about wanting sex apart from the agreed relationship.

    Making love with anyone naturally excites emotions and bonding. The chemistry of semen and the lady lover’s bonding system dictates that her affinity for multiple lovers can be confusing. For ladies who successfully make love for many years with numerous men and remain faithful to the life mate, there must be spiritual bonding that supercedes physical chemistry.

    Ladies, you are endowed with this spiritual side more than us men, but it is rare to find a lady aware of this and putting ut into full practice in her heart with and for her life mate.

    Men, because we have loads of desire to “harem,” let’s pay enough introspection into our professed devotion to our trusting life mate to know if we are even slightly off the mark of complete devotion to her.

    For anyone dabbling in same gender benders, the clear warning is; Mankind is not wired that way – there is no chemistry shared body to body like male female. Only an emotional bond, nearly identical with sheer lust. The fact is, same gender relationship have to go outside for sexual satisfaction. Near 100% do because only lust is the bonding agent. The very few of these relationships that last have little and no satisfying sex, or are wide open to sex with whoever. That’s the record.

    Selfless love.

    Love your life mate as Creator loves you, then you experience jealousy-free romance and sex with or without other people in bed with you.

    Sex is for the spouse’ good, and that spouse selflessly loves you, too.

    Sex by any other means has nothing more than lust as its motive.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    October 20th, 2015 at 11:40 PM

    “Me,” My girl friend’s mom, who cried when she made love with me after 39 years of marriage with a man who couldn’t get hard but gave her good orgasms but then died in 2009, kinda resembles your situation. Dear, hubbies need clear mental pictures for us to know the sexual pain you dear ladies have when our attention is only on our own orgasm.

    With my first wife – mother to our 4 – I learned for her health I would need to give her the time and space and both foreplay and copulation for her sexual satisfaction. Then I could relax enough to attain my own. That was pretty hard on our relationship after our sex stagnated with age, children, and employment needs. The employment for her placed her as personal secretary with younger men who found her attractiveness pretty strong, and while she came home to tired, sweaty and dirty me, she arrived at her bosses’ offices at her best, and their sexual peak for the day with us men.

    My second wife’s sexual satisfaction took a bit different tack. She did not allow oral, my favorite along with fingering, so all I could do was clitoris orgasm for her. Then our copulation usually gave me the big O.

    Perhaps for you and hubby, request that you masturbate or orally give him orgasm for several times, first, then ask if he’s ever thought how he would rate his sexual experience with you if he never orgasms with your assistance. Have him read or talk with ladies about how intense you crave orgasm, but probably even more, your body and heart craves your lover’s caring attention for and with you to achieve sexual satisfaction, even stronger than us guys crave to ejaculate inside you dear ladies. In fact, have him study and understand the bonding chemistry that our semen mixed with your vagina secretions has for life time sex mates.

    His respect for you is the missing element. Us men have blinders for our lovers’ sexual needs for some reason. We take you ladies for granted, even when we assume we love you enough.

    Sexual education begins with learning the sexual factors which each gender has unique to us people, and then for each individual. Our childhood and pre-adult sexual ideas and interests and information and the way sexual interplay was presented to us before our settling into a lifetime sexual relationship plays a large role in the sexual desires and practices each of us has with our life mate. Those couples who determine the truth about sex they share for life is new and exciting each day and over time with all the maturing body we have and the sexual things we learn about through the years bring sexual change.

    This sexual change should be the key focal point for couples to learn together what each discovers, and is interested in exploring. What brought you and hubby together, except it was sex, or at least sexual attraction?

    That’s the point we couples forget over years of same ol same ol screwing the same mate, the same way, and with the same habit. In the beginning, whether you both came from many sexual mates or it was your first, the intrigue and excitement of your sexual stimulation stagnated with use and practice.

    You might ask hubby to share with you his imagination of you doing a good friend of his, hopefully your friend too so both can more clearly share the vision. If he will do this with you, ask him to describe the fantasy in detail, especially what he visions you doing and receiving from this friend’s sharing his love making with you. You may even want to include the vision of hubby joining the two of you to have him put himself in comparison with the acts of making love you and the other man are doing in this little play. I suggest that you each find some good movies of lovers making love and describing their sensations as the cameras roll. Other sexual training materials also share unique views and experiences about lifetime lovers’ sexual experiences.

    One thing us hubbies usually overlook is the way you gals’ see our love making extending to the way we treat you hours, days, and even years before sharing sex and intercourse with you. Guys who practice making love to their spouse with taking the garbage out, cleaning the house, shopping with you, sharing odd moments with you just because, and especially massaging your body to help you relax and especially to prepare your whole being to receive our mating with you, have some of the most devoted and appreciative spouses imaginable.

    Gabrielle Moore publishes a beautiful series about making massage the focal point of men loving their sex mates, and each man developing keen perception for her(Or their) sexual bond with him from his attention to her in every way.

    Jordan Gray produces very insightful material and seminars for men and women to be and train to make love deeper and more satisfying for both genders. Both these sex researchers have newsletters. “Dr. Sex, M.D.” is a lady whose deep understanding of you ladies’ craving for sexual satisfaction with men who respect and devote their life to filling you with appreciation for being woman, shares lots in her newsletters.

    Amazon carries a multitude of titles that titillate both men and ladies’ sexual libidos. Each is so different, too. Us guys love visual imagery of sexual mating. You gals’ sexual stimulation comes with words. “50 Shades of Grey” is the continuing best seller simply because it supplies the mental sexual stimulation you girls require. Good, sincere adult actors who are committed to making material that illustrates genuine sexual love making and intercourse produce the best visual examples of ladies being sexually satisfied by us male lovers and friends. Commercial adult productions rarely, if ever, provide honest sexual stimulation for anyone, especially us men. Many actors came out of that seedy beginning, so expect to see performers who have histories reaching back into that sordid mess.

    Anyway, “Me,” and anyone struggling with sexual satisfaction with and from a life mate, begin to develop meaningful ways you can attract you mate sexually again, especially with education him or her with your desires, cravings, and your sexual changes. Never, ever, assume you are too old or just beyond some point of no return for experiencing the best sex ever every day!

    You worth it!

    Reply

  • John

    November 29th, 2015 at 7:43 AM

    You know why so many of your wives want open marriages? Because you’ve allowed the world to take your balls.
    Be men again and take charge. Women like to be dominated even if many won’t admit it.
    It’s just like men, if they do not get what they want and need at home, their eye begins to wander. I know if my cupboards were bare I’d want to go out to eat.
    Again be men and stop being feminized politically correct wimps and reclaim the world.
    And kids are never a reason to stay in a loveless unhappy marriage. Staying together in such situations actually is what messes them up more.
    If I wanted a sexless relationship I’d of gotten a flatmate, if masturbation was a good enough substitute I’d of stayed single.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    November 29th, 2015 at 10:46 AM

    John – Kids *ARE* THE reason to work out any and all family issues. My kids’ mom Divorced me when all but tthe last were adults, and now our kids are living in Hell with relationship issues that cannot be resolved because they have ZERO guidance from mom and dad how to overcome issues.

    Yes! Men MUST be MALE again! But, not the male dominant jerks shown on commercial porn and stupid Hollywood make believe. Men who are kind-hearted, gentle, forgiving, loving, and who weather the passionate emotional storms our ladies encounter to be her soft rock of confidence, and support when the world goes into a whirlwind of crazy that makes her dizzy.

    Our ladies give and give and give. But, where is their Source?

    A real hint for us guys to take very serious is the awesome “50 Shades of Grey” series by a mature nurse who just happened to be frustrated by male wimps her friends had for partners when they all wanted stable, dependable, sexually interesting male companions whose complete focus remains on the lady(ies) of his erotic pursuit. Our lady(ies) just do not have the sexual answers! We do! But, our sexual repertoire too often follows the empty, phony fantasy eroticism of porn. Strip her; screw her; move on.

    Instead, cater to her(them). Make each sex mate KNOW she is vital to who you are as a Man, her Lover, and to your world apart from her. Shower her with support and attention to her desires in all she is and does. Whether she reviles you, or loves on you, stay the course with her, because she is ripped with emotions that temper her feelings for you at any given moment. Keep her focused on her core values. Keep her relieved of chores you can do – like NOT sitting in front of the tube when anything to please her is waiting your doing it.

    When she is at LEAST the same degree of importance to you as you are, then you’ll have a lady to make love with all you want.

    Reply

  • Maks665

    December 13th, 2015 at 5:28 AM

    Please prepare for a life without your wife. I have just gone through 5 years of hell after discovering my wife had already lived out her fantasy of having another man. I tried all things , new styles 50 shades , kindness marital counseling, new country etc it has not worked. Human beings change and unfortunately our female folks change much more than we do. Early in life they are predisposed to sacrifice everything for the family for a partner etc and they tend to ignore themselves. They give to children , give to husband and give. Unfortunately again when they reach a certain age , it’s like a light build momentum. They realize they have given and not received . It may not be true that they have not received / the facts are irrelevant they just feel like they have not been the Centre of attention, that’s because the purpose they asked you for things or did anything for you was from the mothering part, now the testestorone levels are rising more like you felt when you were 15 – 25 . They want something new and you are not it. Whatever, whatever you do. Best thing my friend is to find other interest. Cherish the times you had together and the love she gave you. She is an adolescent again. She loves you the way a daughter truly loves her father but not sexually. She needs something else. Take a hint give her the space and trust me you will find love again but most likely not your wife

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    December 13th, 2015 at 3:03 PM

    Sorry, but try to see sex from her perspective, not yours, nor the perspective the two of you attended your wedding with. Love her all the more now as she gets her sexual fun with other guys, and reassure her and yourself that when you practice the same degree of sexual desire for screwing her brains out at a wink today as back then, she will laugh and go at it with another guy just to prove to herself that you are the only man she really wants to fuck her – because deep inside she needs to find out if you really meant that she is the only turn on you want for life!

    Go help her find another guy! Help her choose sexy things to turn him-them on with all her charms! Gift her with more erotic loving than she can stand!

    What have you to lose? A little pride? A LOT of jealousy?

    Lose it!

    4 Her!

    Isn’t she worth it to you?

    Reply

  • qflux

    September 22nd, 2016 at 12:50 AM

    Some of you are cucks, and that’s ok. Many of us are not. You need to get that this is ok too. YOUR way isn’t “THE WAY”. It is *your way*. And for all of your “free love” BS, it isnt even CONSISTENT.
    Your world view boils down to “some men should marry women and cherish them and stay loyal them and worship them, others should get to have sex with them without marrying them and the married men should be great with this because universe and zen and open and free love and freedom”
    Yeah no

    Reply

  • Earl

    December 14th, 2015 at 11:03 AM

    These are some interesting responses. In my case, my wife’s “open marriage” plan developed quickly into the “I fell in love with a fantasy” scenario. I’m OK with moving on from her, but we have kids at home for six more years and we’ve always had a pretty calm, happy household. She’s agreed to go to counseling but her heart’s not in it. She’s totally devoted to her married, cheating boyfriend (who is still trying to keep it a secret from his wife). I’m starting to think a trial separation is our last shot. She’s so lost in fantasyland, don’t know if she’s stopped to really think about how tough a divorce would be on everyone in our family. The next step after “I fell in love with a fantasy” is pretty much “I didn’t realize how stupid I was until it was too late,” right? Maks665 entry above seems to describe my wife perfectly, Any thoughts would be appreciated.

    Reply

  • Ellie

    December 15th, 2015 at 8:48 AM

    I came across this post today whilst trying to understand my own thoughts and feelings.
    I am a young woman (very early twenties) and I’ve already been married two and a half years. I absolutely adore my husband. He is the kindest, most understanding and loving person I have ever known. I felt more than ready to marry him when the time came. There was no hesitation at all. I felt he was the “one” and I had no reserves. From the age of about fourteen to the age of around seventeen, I’d always had a slight fear of commitment. I shouldn’t have even been thinking about dating at fourteen, but that is a completely different story. To give you all a gist of what has brought me to the place I am right now in my life, I will try and give a brief over view of the events in my past that lead up to this currant moment.
    At ten I was diagnosed with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. By twelve years old, I barely had any healthy skin left on my hands from the extreme hand washing. By thirteen, I seemed to have made a breakthrough on my own, and the OCD became less severe. At fourteen, my father was killed. That was the beginning of the end for me, I think. I started self harming shortly before he died due to mild depression and once he was killed it all went downhill from there. The self harm got worse and so did the depression. I was diagnosed with anorexia nervosa, severe depression and anxiety a few months before my fifteenth birthday. I was (wrongly) hospitalised at fifteen for a suicide attempt. I had a particularly bad evening and really messed up my arms by self harming and my therapist deemed me a risk to myself, so I was sent away for a week. I wasn’t trying to kill myself, but what I had done scared my mother. During all my mental struggles, I was also very deeply infatuated and in daily contact with a thirty year old man. It was all online. I had lied to him, telling him I was in my twenties and when he figured out things weren’t quite adding up I told him the truth. He said our relationship had to stop once he found out I was fourteen, but I begged him to stay. Needless to say, he did. This relationship was up and down and all over the place from age fourteen to age eighteen. I sent my first nude at thirteen years old to a twenty six year old across the world. I was doing sexual things for men I didn’t know on my webcam. I was also handing out my phone number to strangers on the internet during the short periods I was single because it made me feel something. Looking back, I think I just wanted to feel approval or worth something more than what I thought I was worth.
    At eighteen I finally found the man that would become my husband only a year later. I was cured of anorexia, ocd, or any of the other mental issues, but I was surviving and I was doing all right. I was a healthy weight and I was functioning and not self harming anymore.
    Shortly after I got married(only a month or so) I found out I was pregnant. I was nineteen, married, pregnant and I had no money to raise a family or do the things I needed I do to be an adult. I had a horrible pregnancy. I was sick as a dog for the first three months and the next four months I spent living in a tiny bedroom at my mother in law’s, preparing to move to a foreign country at seven months pregnant because the country my husband is from, I didn’t fit the requirements to live there at the time. So I ended up moving countries at seven months pregnant and having a baby with no family or friends around, just me and my husband. Both still teenagers with no real adult life experience.
    During my pregnancy was some of the worst times of my life. I felt even worse about my body image and self confidence than ever before, even in the worst of times in my anorexia. The OCD became severe very quickly. When my child was born, things were okay for a week or two. Then came the anger, the resentment, the disgust at myself and my situation. In the beginning when my husband and I first found out I was pregnant, I was considering abortion. We were married, yes. We were also extremely broke, had no place of our own and had the immigration issues to sort out for me to be able to live in his country. We were also still only teenagers. He was very much against the idea of abortion and in that moment I knew if I chose to not have our child our new marriage would already be over. There was also obviously still that part of me that wanted our baby. He was upset that I was even considering it. Which I completely understand and understood then.
    Fast forward to the present day(I’m so sorry this is all over the place) and we are now living in his country after spending a year and a half in a different country. He works from home, I spend 99% of my time cleaning. Our child lives with his mother, as I can’t physically even touch him because of how severe the OCD has gotten. It is at the point where I leave the house once a week if I’m lucky. I have no healthy skin on my hands. I will change my clothes up to five times and day and shower as many times as I think I need to to be clean. I don’t go outside unless I’m prepared to be contaminated for the rest of the day and I accept that it means I can’t go sit on my sofa or do anything until I’ve showered. It rules my life. The self harm, anxiety and depression have been just as bad for the past almost two years now.
    Now, to the reason why I’m here. For the past few months I have been feeling like a horrible person because I want sex outside of our marriage. I have breached the “open relationship” subject with my husband, and he was understandable upset. I brought it up too many times and I apologised and we just tried to move on from it. But it’s still there, that feeling hasn’t gone away. I would NEVER cheat on my husband, let’s just make this clear now. I candidly told him about how I’m feeling because I respect him and tell him EVERYTHING. That is how he said he always wants it to be and even said that when I told him that, that he would have rather known and that I was honest with him. I am always honest with him. He has made it 100% clear that he will never be onboard for an open relationship. I asked if he thought we should do couples therapy a few months ago and he looked at me like I was crazy and said no. He just wanted to move on and pretend it never happened, I think. I’ve not brought it up since and won’t bring it up again, I know what he thinks and that he won’t change his mind.
    My question is, how do I stop feeling like this? I think I know *why* I feel like this. I missed out on all of the time I was supposed to be exploring who I am, trying out new things and being sexually curious. I had no childhood. I spent it grieving, starving, cleaning and obsessing over men that I should have never been involved with in the first place. I feel disgusted at myself for feeling these things, but I don’t know how to just turn it off and pretend I don’t think about it often.
    I am very happy with my husband and our marriage. I don’t want to be in a relationship with anyone else. I don’t want to date anyone else or be married to anyone else. I’m not unhappy with him. Yet I still want sex with other guys. I don’t have specific men in mind either like most people do(unless you count famous singers that I like to fangirl over). I’ve tried to ignore it and pretend that will make it go away, but it doesn’t.
    I don’t know what else I can do. My husband doesn’t want therapy with me, he doesn’t want to talk about so I don’t bring it up, and ignoring it isn’t doing a thing to make it go away.

    Reply

  • The GoodTherapy.org Team

    December 15th, 2015 at 10:52 AM

    Dear Ellie,

    Thanks for sharing your story. If you would like to talk about this, or any other concern, with a therapist, please feel free to return to our homepage, https://www.goodtherapy.org/, and enter your zip code into the search field to find therapists in your area.

    Once you enter your information, you’ll be directed to a list of therapists and counselors who meet your criteria. From this list you can click to view our members’ full profiles and contact the therapists themselves for more information. You are also welcome to call us for assistance finding a therapist. We are in the office Monday through Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. Pacific Time; our phone number is 888-563-2112 ext. 1.

    Kind regards,

    The GoodTherapy.org Team

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    December 15th, 2015 at 2:23 PM

    Ellie,

    Anyone with a little bit of compassion for others senses and respects you and your desperate courage to search for and find lasting peace and sense of being safe and being the fulfilled and happy lady you are supposed to be, like us all. Thank you for sharing!

    Perhaps as you mature life makes a little more sense in some ways, but then gets more crazy in others. Ito does for me, and I no those who are honest friends tell me it’s the same for them. We experience true, imagined and sometimes for some of us, induced feelings of abandonment by our significant others – mom, dad, grandparent(s), siblings we admire, intimate friend(s), life mate, and so on. Before and during adolescence, these “abandonments” can and often do lead to internal disorders of our reasoning. In my own experience, it’s led to a life of feeling inadequate, a deep sense of being unworthy, and having troubles finding and keeping meaningful sexual relationships with my wives and lovers. My mom told me how her doctor advised her to never pick me up as an infant when I cried for any reason, and to ignore my need and her need to be close and intimate as mother and newborn. She treated myself and my next-born brother and sister this way, and all three of us have struggled with this sense of abandonment all our 65+ years. Our other three sisters mom gave her natural mothering instincts to all their pre-adult lives, and they have no such issues.

    A dear man I learned to know in Florida – at the extreme opposite to my home in North West Washington, shares with those who he counsels for dissatisfaction with who they are much this same understanding about significant people in our early development life who in some way we sense abandoned us. It opens their understanding to the fact that the sense of belonging and having an enduring appreciation by at least one other being is the most vital element we need to see life as good and worth the trouble it takes to stay alive.

    My 23 year old son, today he’s 46, was just beginning to come out from most of his life being a traumatic affair with his learning disorders, my fathering him a dismal failure, and his friends using him as a laughing stock when he made a mistake driving that sent him into a near death encounter, two and a half weeks’ coma, and three months hospital stay just to be able to come home. Then that year his mother Divorced me, and due to her angst, I was entirely yanked out of his hurting life at the moment he and I began to heal our relationship. Four years later he took one of his hunting arrows and shoved it into his chest. He missed his heart by an inch. Today he is a permanent invalid, with self-proclaimed “therapists” who I call “trained monkeys,” telling how bad I am, and causing him more anxiety than he can live with without their adding heavy sedatives and other life-shortening mental drugs. He took up chain smoking as a response to the pains the toxic soup cause.

    My friend in Florida shares his own near death experience with the toxic soup he took to find relief from his deep sense of unworthiness. In 1997 his “professional” people told him he had about 4 months left. He decided to abandon them and go to a source he’d been told by three generations of his family, and the “professionals” has no ability to heal our pains. In three months his entire health returned, and he went on to be a valued member of his community, his family, and a broader reach into lives beyond his physical place.

    So far here I’ve shared nothing of the deep intimate struggles of my life, nor the Source of my gaining an enduring sense of Being and Design for Who I Am. May I recommend to you, Ellie, that when you go out and seek someone else who you can identify intimately with their suffering and in your own heart you concentrate on being the enduring compassionate friend that individual needs, come good or bad, you then will develop your own permanent healing and sense of Being Well?

    May I share some people for you to go online and read and listen to their experiences with issues that threatened to drive them into a tail spin into life pain, and even suicide?

    The first is a lady I met in Hershey, Pennsylvania when I lived there with my young family. At 17 she did a terrible mistake, diving head first into unfamiliar water that was a few feet deep. She is a quadriplegic since. She’s a wife, a mom, a world class enthusiast and traveler to third world back water villages where she finds abandoned children with severe physical deformities and uses her means to provide for their health and well being, and she is a renowned fine artist, author of many books, motivational speaker, and not to long, grandmother.

    Another is a gentleman in Australia. Nick was a normal unborn, so far as ultrasound, but at his birth the surprise was he had neither arms nor legs. Today, just like Joni’s struggle with wishing she could kill herself but couldn’t because she had no use of her arms and legs, Nick is a husband, father, international best-selling author, high demand motivational speaker, author, owns and runs at least three highly successful business, and his bio reads better than that Trump character!

    There’s two whose lives were at least in terrible ruts before they went to the One Source my friend in Florida went to, and went from facing certain death in three months to the healthy, vibrant, selfless caring man his is today, 18 years later.

    Want dozens more real living people with experiences that encourage, inspire and can, if you focus on Being the You you are Designed to be for Others, when you just do like you did here, confess TO YOURSELF 100% of your feelings, and then get up and find someone to love selflessly?

    To close, Ellie, there’s a famous practice that money counterfeiters use to determine false money from good.

    THEY NEVER STUDY COUNTERFEIT MONEY!

    Why not? It’s the WRONG FOCUS!

    That’s exactly why “professional” therapists always fail! They treat and focus and emphasize the disease!

    Dear lady! You DO NOT Want The Disease! So, GO FOCUS ON THE HEALTH!

    If anyone wants to suppress this factual and proven effective healing and health giving life success focus to Ellie, just remember that our Best Health and Healing comes with Truth that stands the tests of time, assault, and attempts to alter, unscathed.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    December 15th, 2015 at 3:13 PM

    Earl, You’re right. But, ladies operate on emotions and fantasy is more fact than fiction for most I know. Also, the way I see women is that it is frequent that their ability to deceive themselves goes far deeper than us guys. Ladies facing extreme trauma develop multiple persona characters that are embedded into their identity for life. Same for some guys, but like little girls fantasize with dolls more than little guys fantasize with toys, life events during formative years for ladies seem to determine the life-long development they experience more than men, but men, on the other hand, resist counsel and need to change more than ladies!

    Guess we’re all sorta in dire need of belonging to someone who needs us for who we are. Maybe try to need your wife for the fantasy lady she is?

    Reply

  • hientjie

    December 24th, 2015 at 10:25 PM

    you have a wonderful wife it seem she dont want to lie and cheat onto you..but the matter is that she wants to try a spices in your sex life…but it may a good i dea…for a couple that doesnt believe in god…but if your a christian…i hope you go to the church and ask god help..why go to therapy unless you have a fear in god if not donot doubt about it….

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    December 27th, 2015 at 4:03 AM

    Not to mess with you so much, but the Christian pagan religion produces more Divorce than good marriage. Both my Christian wives are typical – one Divorced me, breaking our adult children’s marriage trust, the other hated my seeking Scripture Truth so much she gave up on living and died.

    Go into ancient family records to see multiple sex partner families were more stable, however flawed each member was.

    Reply

  • Anonymous

    January 21st, 2016 at 4:13 AM

    As I read through the comments here, I see some are capable of having open eyes about the situation. MANY others, however, are painting this mans situation with their own views, whether they apply or not.

    Simply put, what’s right for the goose, may not be right for tha gander. Just because an open marriage did not work for you, does not mean it hasn’t worked for other people. We can share our personal experiences (so long as we can also HONESTLY reflect and also share WHY we don’t think it worked). But do not try to imply that’s this mans situation will end up like yours. You couldn’t be completely wrong.

    I think the authors response was the best possible for this situation. Seek a therapist. It is possible that after counseling, the wife may change her mind. Or maybe the husband will. It is natural to feel horribly offended by such a request from the person you love and value the most. Our societal idea of “one true love” makes it even more offensive. Is this necessarily right? No. How often do we irrationally and emotionally react to a situation that we find later was silly? All the time. This is no different.

    I wish all the luck to this man and his wife. This is a very challenging situation to face. All I can say is, be completely open with eachother about why you are wanting what you want (husband included) and your feelings. Keep revisiting for resolution. If you don’t feel you can do this, seek a mediator (counselor). Do some reading yourself on the subject of open marriages and polygamy. It seems you love her deeply. This doesn’t have to be “the end” of your marriage.

    Reply

  • the coopers

    February 2nd, 2016 at 11:35 PM

    Me and my wife have been married for 19 years and have been in a open relationships for about 10 years and we love and respect each other the same as the day we met but I have a question about our sex life my wife has a hard time talking about her fantasys or Sex in general and I share all of my fantasy with her and we talk about them but she doesn’t share her thoughts and fantasys with me would sex therapy be helpful or what about getting hipmatized would be a option and helpful please help us to be more open with each other thank you for your help

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    February 3rd, 2016 at 8:37 PM

    I so enjoy the good exchanges here! Thank you, Darren Habor!
    the coopers; You know, Mr. Cooper, it comes to mind that maybe your beloved sweetheart has trust issues with both her own things and yours, and with the relationship you two share. We people experience so many, many, many uncontrollable, sometimes uninvited, arbitrary, “good” and “bad” emotions, trusts and distrusts, and all the social baggage we muddle through. Being a lady, and in love with you, and most likely with one or more people she shares awesome love making with, your Lover and Intimate Friend *May* experience misgivings about both hers and your reactions to all the third party and her relationship “stuff” – “good” and “bad,” with you.

    From what my heart sees your words say, she and you enjoy the beautiful sex others share with each of you. You don’t share if the two of you do third party sex together, separate, or some form of both, but you seem to indicate for each of you it is a wonderful aspect of the sexual relationship you share with her. Children? Parents? Social friends’ knowing? Religious aspects? Employment and related formal issues? These you do not mention, but, as most all of us have, these are normal issues, and for our beloved spouse(s), these are critical areas of concern.

    Is she and/or you satisfied with meaningful satiating sexual interplay with just one another? Do you or she feel inadequate in any way, sexually, or otherwise that likely impacts her feminine sexuality and values?

    And, here’s a clincher; how freely doe Lovely Mrs. Cooper open her inmost heart to you? Has this changed in any way since the wedding; over time; or with events in your life together? We could go on for hours exploring the enormous possibilities of cause-effect of feminine relationship and communication “stuff,” but let’s focus on her and you, together. Will Mrs. Cooper honestly share her deepest emotions with you, safely? Will you reciprocate, and do the same just with her? Or, is there even the faintest possibility there may be a little crack in your relationship vault where it does, or just may appear private relationship info can escape?

    I’m absolutely enthralled in reading “50 Shades of Grey”!! EL James, as a young lady(Well, young to my 70 years!:-)), has magnificently joined prose and emotions of two glorious people beings into a woven tapestry of erotic, emotional, and awesome self and Lover discovery novel series! She wrote the first trilogy from the lady’s perspective, and 100, 000, 000+ ladies the earth over enjoy every morsel James shares. Now she is about to reveal the first volume in Christian’s perspective! I know many ladies who received the books as gifts have asked their Lover(s) to read the beautiful love story, and men who share their experience just cannot get over how awesome the beautiful tale relates to reality.

    Ana and Christian face insurmountable issues, but the sexual energy flowing between their bodies and souls melds and welds their hearts into one magnificent whole! I encourage you and Mrs. Cooper to invest in both the trilogy and two or more viewing, together and apart, of the movie, afterwards, then get James’ rewrite of volume one in Christian’s perspective.

    Then in whatever time frame it takes to assimilate this course, open loving and definitely sexual dialogue between the two of you. Time is so precious, and the relationship you two have has considerable time with at least some wonderful parts that meld you two together. That’s precious investment in today’s mixed up shallow sexual relationship place!

    Hope this helps a bit . . .

    Claude

    Reply

  • Uncertain Wife

    February 13th, 2016 at 7:43 PM

    Wow! This thread has continued to grow over quite a period of time, totally indicating to me how many ppl are dealing w/this issue in their relationships. I have been married for 18 years and have 4 children with my husband. I know it’s cliche, but I love my husband, but am not currently in love with him. I’ll try and cut to the chase and make it simple, bc I could easily spend an hour writing this post.

    In my situation, I don’t want to see someone else bc the sexual relationship that I have with my husband is lacking, inadequate or unfulfilling. He is a very attentive lover and I have many, many orgasms every time we have sex. The problem is not the physical act of sex… it is our lack of intimacy, his weight and his inability to communicate well(show empathy to others; only sees black and white, no grey; etc.). It’s difficult to want to be with a man physically when you feel that he doesn’t “understand” you. It’s hard to give yourself to someone when you don’t fell “connected.” I put it all in quotes, bc I’m sure you men have “heard it all before.” It’s true though. Sex for me is not just the physical act. The physical act is not where we have a problem. We have a problem communicating and he doesn’t make me feel sexy or valued.

    If another man is able to do the things for me that my husband either can’t do or won’t do or is uncomfortable doing and someone else values me and wants to do the things I enjoy(like traveling), then I don’t understand why he won’t allow me to be happy. I’m still being his wife and I live with him and come home to him every night, but I need space. I fell trapped and stifled. He wants me to be the wife he desires, but isn’t fixing the concerns that are most dire to me. Furthermore, if someone else wants to do the things he doesn’t why should I have to give up them making me happy, to be unhappy with my husband? I don’t want to hurt him, but right now it’s like we live in the same home, but we aren’t connected on an emotional level. We are having sex like once a month… maybe. Marriage shouldn’t be like this.

    Had he taken my concerns seriously when I brought them up years ago, addressed his issues of obesity and learned to give me words of affirmation(my love language) then perhaps I’d feel differently. As for now, I’m resentful, but I try to be nice and I mainly just stay quiet. I could give more detail, but if he searches and finds this he’ll know it’s me. It’s so disheartening, bc he really is a wonderful person, man and father, but I’m just kinda over it. I’ll be his wife forever, but I need him to allow me the freedom and space to supplement my happiness in the ways he’s not able. I’m not talking sex with someone else, just intimacy and an emotional relationship where we travel and date and spend time together. I’d never be disrespectful about it, but he’s not going for that. He says intimacy and spending time with someone else will lead to sex and that’s all he seems to be able to care about… someone else possibly having sex with his wife. Soooo frustrating!

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    February 14th, 2016 at 10:19 PM

    Uncertain Wife, when I first discovered this awesome venue for and about real “open marriage” issues, it was from my desire to know how to share sex and love making with people I’m faithful to, but outside the core relationship of lifetime commitment, whether three or more individuals are the core family or simply two lovers. I have a unique girl friend who is a grandmother, widow, and her mother, widowed as well, and both dear friends who need and deserve meaningful sexual release and affirmation frequently, and my beautiful friend asked me to make love with her mom. Watching Mother silently cry happy tears as we shared love broke my heart. Now, knowing the things people having sex outside some imaginary boundary experience, I am better equipped to communicate my love for my darling lady friend, and the commitment I have to and with her, while sharing meaningful sex with her mother. Her mom could be a close girl friend, too. But, the point is this: my dear friend sharing me sexually must be with people she first loves deeply, and in all due respect for her, and anyone she shares me with.

    That said, unless I grossly misinterpret your wonderful message, your dear hubby has never cherished you. He has very very little respect for you or himself, or, his relationship with you, and very minimal respect for your marriage, your vows, and your intimacy, and his duties as husband, and apparently no respect for your family, children included.

    Period.

    Not knowing him, or you, for that matter, there’s precious little to say to encourage you, or him, to hit “Reverse” and go back to the First Love which closed the deal for your wedding, and your mutual decision to share Life together.

    But, that “Reverse” to the First Love point may be a key. But, again, it must be mutual at some point. alone, you can initiate the return for yourself, and make attractive, “Your welcome to come with me” comments as your rediscovery uncovers those moments you two were closer. You can vision with certainty the way your relationship best suits your desires, and make enticing tidbits of introduction to hubby. You can find ways to use erotic and romantic dress, words, and acts you experienced with him that he enjoyed. You can ask him to warm up to the sexual arousal game and be imaginative on his own, and be sure you compliment him, no matter how you react inside. You can do as every woman I’ve every made love to, and control him in almost every way!

    You can subscribe to some awesome erotic and romantic online guides.

    You can continue sharing here! You can be discrete, and iron-clad in openly and verbally supporting your hubby with everyone you share your needs with. You can build your own marriage!

    Thank you for sharing!

    It took a bit of resolve! The same resolve that lies at the heart of great marriage! Your marriage!

    Reply

  • MALOUFOKKER

    February 16th, 2016 at 4:05 PM

    My wife and I have been monogamous for 39 years(married for 37.) I have reduced testosterone levels and so to all intents and purposes I am impotent as I cannot sustain an erection long enough to give my woman the pleasure she deserves. I am quite happy to let her “outsource” penetrative sex if she so chooses, as I know that the tenderness and love over 39 years will keep out emotional bond. Instead of giving up and ignoring the problem, I researched oral and hand method of inducing orgasm in a woman. After talking it over with my wife and choosing the right romantic moment, I persuaded her to pleasure herself to orgasm and I watched her. I learned where she likes to touch and be touched and I have also looked at instructional books on how women make to to one another. I may not be able to penetrate her, but with her cooperation and love, she remains multi-orgasmic. She knows I am prepared for her to take a lover or series of lovers if she wishes, but at this time, I can still fulfill her needs. We have found that the most important erogenous zone is the brain, and that intimacy is not physical sex. Even lying quietly recalling a romantic event in our past aloud is enough to bring her to the edge where slight actions from me will tip her into orgasm – repeatedly.
    Making love in this manner on Valentine’s Day I counted over 20 orgasms over an hour or so in bed. When she is nearly sated, she will ask me to bring myself to orgasm while she also does. Her pleasure is the source of my pleasure, but she wants me to get release too. It took a great deal of trust, communication and no shame between us to get to this point in our relationship.
    Would I have liked to share exciting sexual experiences with her like threesomes, couples etc? Certainly I was prepared to have her experience whatever she would have an appetite for, but her tastes were very vanilla. We had fun time like skinny-dipping with friends, going to a nudist beach together, etc. in our time, but we didn’t feel the urge to go further. We love each other deeply and there are no secrets or betrayals of trust – we are open, honest with one another and forgiving. If something is bothering you, talk it out. You have two ears and two eyes, but only one mouth. So make sure you listen and read twice as much as you speak. Good luck to you – open marriage or not…

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    February 17th, 2016 at 1:27 AM

    MALOUFOKKER – Yours is one of the most encouraging relationship experiences I’ve ever read! I just finished “Fifty Shades of Grey,” and E.L. James has very much your same monogamous concepts of relationship. The 15,000+ page story is enthralling for die hard romantics!

    Reply

  • Glen S

    February 17th, 2016 at 8:50 PM

    Remember your Creator
    in the days of your youth,
    before the days of trouble come
    and the years approach when you will say,
    “I find no pleasure in them”—
    2 before the sun and the light
    and the moon and the stars grow dark,
    and the clouds return after the rain;
    3 when the keepers of the house tremble,
    and the strong men stoop,
    when the grinders cease because they are few,
    and those looking through the windows grow dim;
    4 when the doors to the street are closed
    and the sound of grinding fades;
    when people rise up at the sound of birds,
    but all their songs grow faint;
    5 when people are afraid of heights
    and of dangers in the streets;
    when the almond tree blossoms
    and the grasshopper drags itself along
    and desire no longer is stirred.
    Then people go to their eternal home
    and mourners go about the streets.
    6 Remember him—before the silver cord is severed,
    and the golden bowl is broken;
    before the pitcher is shattered at the spring,
    and the wheel broken at the well,
    7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
    and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
    8 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher.[a]
    “Everything is meaningless!”

    Reply

  • Linda

    February 25th, 2016 at 11:01 AM

    “We have a great sex life, which I think she would agree with”.
    I think this statement is VERY telling. you “think”? You don’t KNOW? It’s not a crime to not know, but the fact that you don’t know means that is the very thing that is lacking: communication between the two of you. She’s been searching for solutions to a problem you didn’t know existed. And this results from either her not feeling comfortable talking to you about it or you not listening or hearing what she’s saying when she talks. It’s no indictment against either of you; communication is the most difficult thing I experience in my marriage.
    She is further ahead of you in thinking about your sex lives as a couple because she was the first one to experience dissatisfaction. So you have to catch up, but she has to be sympathetic. And you two really have to talk, not about having a open-marriage, but about what her needs are (which seem to be the area that needs most attention at the moment) and what your needs are in turn. Give her your ear, really listen to her, and discuss your true emotions about all of this. This will probably take a lot of time and a lot of days (months even). Just let her know you are willing to go through the process of dealing with both of your needs. If she loves you, she might be frustrated for having to wait for another “solution”, but your attention to her emotions and needs may help her settle down and realize that it is a “we” problem not an “my” problem.

    Reply

  • qflux

    September 22nd, 2016 at 12:59 AM

    Finally a solid comment! Well said!

    Reply

  • Jess

    February 25th, 2016 at 8:24 PM

    So just like everyone else here, my husband and I are struggling with this same dilemma. I want to swing/have threesomes/open relationship. He does not. He has admitted that he is very curious about it but can’t go through with it because of his insecurities. I want to embark on this sexual adventure WITH my husband, but he dies not want to participate, nor will he allow me to explore on my own.

    Background: we have been together for 17 years- married for 11. We met when we were 18. He was a virgin, I was not. We have been together exclusively since we met. No separations, no breakups, no cheating. We still both love each other deeply. We have a fantastic marriage and relationship other than this one (very large) difference of opinion. We still have fantastic satisfying sex and have it often (several times per week). I have fantasies and desires for sexual acts that my husband cannot or will not fulfill on his own. I want to have sex with women, have threesomes (with other women and men), have sex with multiple men at once, and have group sex. I am intrigued by BDSM- my husband says he cannot hit, restrain, or degrade me in any way even if I want him to do it. My husband also cannot orgasm while receiving oral sex (has never done it once his whole life) and that is a huge thing for me. So I feel like I have very valid reasons for asking this of him. It’s not that he is not enough or can’t satisfy me. I simply want to be satisfied in other different ways that he either cannot or will not (through no fault of his own). So now we are gridlocked. We have talked it into the ground for the past year, and we are both nearly miserable because of it. I brought it up and now pandoras box is open. He is not open or flexible at all to taking baby steps toward making this happen at all. I feel so hopeless all he time as I can’t seem to get these sexual fantasies out of my head. My husband has made me feel so guilty over it that I have trouble achieving orgasm when I masturbate because my once hot and sexy fantasies now make me feel dirty and guilty. I can still orgasm when we have sex, but it bothers me that I can no longer enjoy masturbation. We have tried couples counseling (did not help) and are currently seeing therapists separately. It’s not helping. We live in the south in s rural area and it has been impossible to find a sex positive therapist who can relate to this issue. We have read books, listened to podcasts, researched, asked advice….you name it. Nothing helps. I feel hopeless and repressed. I dont know what to do. I try to constantly reassure my husband but nothing helps. I love him so so much and I want to stop having these thoughts and desires but I just can’t seem to let it go. I’m scared to death that I’m going to end up resenting him over time. I love my husband and do not want a divorce. We just can’t seem to understand why the other feels the way they do. We talk in circles and get nowhere. Someone please help me! Are we doomed to be this way forever? Does it have to be his happiness or mine? Is there something I’ve missed or some way for us to compromise? Please help!!!

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    February 26th, 2016 at 10:19 AM

    Jess, your words are much like my own thoughts and frustrations a few years ago. You’re you, so what I share can help a bit, but it’s up to you how to manage your own desires.

    Like you, I wanted my wife to allow me to share the awesome fun of oral. She loathed it(She died in 2013). I dreamed of oral sex with other men, but that would have made her want to run at the mere mention, so I kept silent. I loved the feel and sensation!
    As I became aware of my childhood love of playing naked outside after I turned 60, I searched and found many naturist websites, and learned that sharing naked time in public gatherings with people who are very family friendly and value sexual integrity, with and without swinging sex interests, I discovered that a whole world of naked people with a myriad of sexual dreams, desires and practices is ready to be my friends, sexual companions, and people who honestly want my best interests. I joined a few “nudist” groups and found just one with fair sexual integrity – truenudists and then recently joined its sister site, trueswingers. The members are of all persuasions on both. I search for and ask friendship of those who show genuine love and care for others. So far there are many good, honest members on each site who I count as good friends, and we share sexual confidences and simple life things.

    The suggestion I extend to you and your husband is to one or botth of you join truenudists and get a clear handle of understanding about public naked togetherness as a non-sexual experience that releases everyone I’ve ever met from the confusion of sexual issues and naked gathering for strangers and friends alike. There is so much vital healing of our media-induced sexual infirmatives that everyone who overcomes initial inhibitions goes on to sexual honesty with both their own self, and everyone else. Especially so for those in committed life-long relationship(s).

    It’s a sexual game changer to lose the anxiety our society programs into us! Without that incredibly asinine baggage bearing down upon our entire being, the liberty to enjoy full sexual expression just as our mind and body desire is one magnificent experience that continues to reward us with goodness of life. For me, it’s enabled me to go on to pursue mental and physical natural health and healing. As a result of my focus on sex with multiple lovers, my path led me to experience a most beautiful time with two awesome ladies, and now a kind man is sharing virtual sex in meaningful ways. It’s really up to us to be honest in every way with our own self, and then to extend that integrity out to all others our focus leads us to share life and interests with.
    The one thing each of us has full potential to experience, is honesty. Hurts, yes, but after we pass on, our friends will say about our relationship, “I miss him.”

    I know of no better thing to remember about anyone.

    To your pursuit of honesty, dear Jess.

    Reply

  • Matt

    February 26th, 2016 at 2:09 PM

    It’s amazing how many people hijack somebody else’s posts and serve up their own self centred life experiences. I applaud the ORIGINAL gentleman post and his faith in himself , his marriage and his love. I would walk side by side such a man.

    The inner truths in such cases are rarely ever grey, certainly never as grey as some have commented. When a partner male or female approaches the other with an open relationship it’s for three reasons. A) They are either in a mid-life crisis or are experiencing a deficiency with their existing partner. More than likely both.
    B) They have met someone else or someone else is giving them attention which they want to explore (Women are most likely to do this / men just do it!)
    C) Longterm they want out of the relationship but they are unsure of their future. They use this as a stepping stone because they are weak, torn or confused.(again Women are most likely to do this).

    The reason you cannot understand your wife is because she is not explaining herself in an honest open or transparent way. She needs to be honest with you. She owes you that much and she is hiding the full truth of either a), b) or c) above. The fact that she wants to override your objections is evidence that she cares more about herself than you. The first point of a failure of a marriage and love is self-centred behavior. Would you throw your wife in the lifeboat first or would you get in first? No when you love someone you ‘die’ for them or at very least respect them. In these situation it’s usually worse with a woman since her loss of love and respect is usually the beginning of the end. It’s that black and white. It’s not good news … But is better than being blinded by her confusing comments and behaviour. Worse it could drag out over many years of hell and torture for you!

    Getting your partner to confess these truths is a different matter, many skate around the truth and especially women. If she is in midlife or any crisis and confused she can seek counseling but it rarely works because she hides the truth and her true feelings from the counsellor because the truth is too awkward to bear or be exposed! Women by their nature are more complicated than men because they are usually more loyal, faithful, thoughtful and honest but NOW they are torn!!! It is still worth a try but better she goes alone so she express herself to the counsellor, who quickly advise her to tell you the home truths!

    An open relationship or male cuckolding rarely succeeds simply because women cannot detach sex from love. Men fair better. Also you should read up on New Energy Syndrome (the europhia you get from a new experience or relationship), the non-sexual risks involved in one night stands or open relationships (including the hormones that are released after sex which leads to bonding) and the guilt and jealousy that can follow. It’s a minefield few can navigate or get out of!

    One thing that should be made clear here is that she or any partner in this predicament is not solely the guilty party, how she feels cannot be helped. It takes two to build a relationship and two to break it. Your culpability is equal to hers!

    Normally when a woman feels this way it is not reversible. Fighting it is futile. So what should you do? The first thing you should do is confront her and ask her for full transparency ( usually better to do this with the proviso that you will seek a divorce as the shock factor may make her evaluate her true feelings and true loyalties). Beyond this be strong and pray or hope that she we will eventually gain her true love. I would urge you to walk away from this relationship, even if it means you separate for a prescribed period rather than concede to her experiment, since this is what this is flawed with risks, including the far end scale of suicide, murder and physical harm!

    There will be people who protest this and say that they have been in an open relationship for years. To these bear in mind two things, yes it can be done by the right people equally minded. Secondly these people are also a ‘ticking time bomb’ they haven’t got to the end of their relationship yet! In your case you are not equally minded, you are immediately against it and jealous. All people in love are rightly jealous, apparently not your wife! She knows she has the same risk as you I.e you runoff with someone!

    The gentleman who responded to you in your early responses is intuitively correct. She is hiding something! Either of her current life, predicament, feelings or how she now views your relationship or possibly her sexuality. She may for example have discovered lesbian feelings! She is by no means at fault. The only fault she has is that she is not sharing it with you. She is trying to protect you from the ‘horrible truth’.

    I cannot admire you more or wish you well. In truth these occurrences are a part of life and they are happening all over the world at this very moment. It’s part of being human. It is better to stick to your true love, morality/faith and principles and lose the love you have than follow a path of self destruction. What can we say ; except our heart goes out to you. Keep the faith and if you lose this love you are worthy of another. Remember with a divorce rate as high as one-third to a half in the western world you are not alone, little comfort I know.

    Give her one last chance to explain herself or confess her truth and tell her that you will understand and love her regardless. She may be relieved that you want to end it yourself, a bitter but better truth. Keep your faith. I hope you shock her in to herself. Fingers crossed.

    Good luck.

    Reply

  • Jim

    June 14th, 2017 at 4:18 PM

    Matt: Despite what ClaudeA says and thinks, I believe you are Exactly right. If one partner isn’t into the swinging lifestyle forcing them is a recipe for disaster. Much better to get everything out in the open Now than to wait until the hurt is so bad the relationship implodes. If the two parties in the marriage can’t get on the same page then it’s better to part while remembering the good times and love you shared. Neither partner in a marriage can be allowed to dictate the conditions of the marriage Especially after years of being together. ClaudeA seems to think if somebody doesn’t want an open marriage, they are being unreasonable. ClaudeA is flat our wrong. Your opinion is Just as valid as your spouse but agreement is going to be necessary to continue with a fruitful marriage. Good luck and be true to yourself.

    Reply

  • Derek

    October 14th, 2019 at 8:19 PM

    Matt made many great points, but one in particular that I have had a hard time putting into words. “The fact that she wants to override your objections is evidence that she cares more about herself than you”. I could not agree more with you. She has no love or respect for him it’s all about her. If she really loved and respected him she would be completely forthcoming with how she feels. She is being manipulative and controlling of her husband in favor of the outcome she desires. This is taking away his freedom to fully assess the situation and make a proper decision for himself. I feel like this point has been over looked too often. That I can’t say it enough he is the one losing his freedom, but Most likely she will turn around and imply/say that he is imposing on her freedom and being controlling. She is just trying to coerce him into something he is not interested in.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    February 26th, 2016 at 6:03 PM

    You’re really quite self-centered, and in so many words, display your profound fears of being honest with your significant other, aren’t you, Matt.
    The couple we have here love one another far more than the way you love yourself. They hold back on sharing inner thoughts so to give benefit of uncertainty for each other’s misgivings and fears treading on unfamiliar paths, because each understands there is no black and white issues to love and self gratification. Each so cares for the other that the horrendous turmoil of Divorce stays off limits and far beyond the horizon. That’s love like you apparently have no concept of, or, have tremendous, overwhelming fear of. Give yourself space to fear, to love, and to come to terms with the self-centric nature inside your heart, Matt.

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  • Jim

    June 14th, 2017 at 4:20 PM

    ClaudeA: “You’re really quite self-centered, and in so many words, display your profound fears of being honest with your significant other, aren’t you, Matt.” That statement is possibly the most pompous statement I’ve ever read on this site.

    Reply

  • Benny

    February 26th, 2016 at 7:14 PM

    Matt, as someone who’s living a version of this story, I think you have good insights, My wife wanted an open marriage, fell head over heels in love with the husband of one of her friends and it lasted about 6 months before he dumped her. That should have been good news, but now she’s on a dating service trying to find that “connection” she thought she had with her married, cheating ex-boyfriend. I’d gladly split from her, but a divorce would be awful for our kids and ruin our finances. I’ve decided I’m absolutely not leaving and will fight a divorce, because I can’t leave the kids with a mother who is making horrible choices. You’re right, you can’t really fight her feelings. She refuses to go to solo or joint counseling. I’m at a loss for what to do.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    February 27th, 2016 at 10:22 PM

    Benny, While my comments to Matt look harsh, and they are meant to help him set his wild emotional flight on the deck and gather his senses, both of you are very right about the ladies’ having determined courses. However, if they truly wanted to go for the outside relationship, they would never have stayed around for hubby to be in their life. They are just as settled for staying inside the marriage as having sex outside it. Maybe I can restate the thoughts I have for Matt, and you, now, to make a bit more savvy support for you both.
    First, I come from the Divorce of my children’s mom when she determined to go outside our marriage, not only for sexual gratification, but for complete dismissal of me, even though I was desperately trying to find some form of counsel and support that she would accept and stay with her family vow. She simply had support from her other lovers that advised her to trash our children’s home at any cost. That cost nearly took the life of our 23 year old son, who became so despondent he almost succeeded in killing himself.
    The good of your wife NOT leaving her family, but only part of her vow, is that she loves you, wants you in some way to stay in her life, and she has respect for your children, same as you. I would so have loved for my children’s mom to have honored me enough to go find another penis ro serve her needs, but retain her marriage status with me. I can deal with my penis having too little appeal, because there are good lady sex organs belonging to ladies who would be all too satisfied with sex with me. The issue both you and Matt have is possessive jealousy.
    The way to deal with all jealousy is to get rid of it. It is a disease. It slaps heavy restraints around the objects it preys upon, both you and the significant other you are jealous for.
    Play lover and friend for a change of attitude and focus, Benny. Follow your wife’s lead and join her in your own search for a lover and friend apart from her. Like her, determine you will stay with her – your family – whatever feelings between other sexual companions you may have. What could possibly be bad about playing her game? Unless, of course, you are too weak and fearful of yourself to stay with your marriage while screwing someone outside it. Sorry, sorta, for the plain English, but it’s better to be blunt here than couch key points and issues in oblique and indeterminate phrases.
    Bottom line, Benny, is your marriage; your family. Make your wife and children count more than you, to you, and thereby join with your wife seeking and having sex apart from your relationship with her, as little else will serve to open her eyes and understanding to what her acts are doing to you, and her marriage. The old adage, “Tit for Tat” applies well.

    Reply

  • Carla

    April 1st, 2016 at 9:03 AM

    My brother is having an instance with his wife of 15 years in that she has been trying to convince him to allow her to have another man come into their marriage. She is a very attractive woman who has always been a “in charge” kind of woman throughout their marriage. Her claim is that it would strengthen the relationship and she would be a much happier wife for him. The catch is that he would not be allowed to see other women. He is totally in love with her and is slowly coming around to her views. He has confide to me all the details and asks my advice but he will not take a stand again her. She has already brought one young man home to introduce him to my brother. He has told her that he does not want to share her but she insists that its the way it will be. He has been told that there will be several more guys and that he will be gracious and accept them as friends. I have no answers for him as long as he will not stand up to her.

    Reply

  • Stu

    April 30th, 2016 at 4:51 PM

    My wife of almost 18 years has had a number of lovers since my first major health emergency (by-pass) followed by diabetes & prostate cancer starting in 2003.
    While I am not thrilled by her behavior I do accept it as I
    1. Do not want to go through another divorce
    2. I frankly do not have the energy or desire for a lot of sex
    3. Her affairs never last longer than a few weeks before she tires & moves on to a new one.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    May 1st, 2016 at 1:57 AM

    Carla, it’s not her marriage with your brother that his wife is putting first, nor even him and his love and care for her in any priority at all, from the sounds of your comment. Good, caring respectful sex with lovers other than one’s spouse IS part of one’s marriage. There is no other alternative, since what one spouse does, sx or anything else, impacts both, and their children, if they have any, plus their larger family and community.

    Your brother is faced with a rebel marriage spouse. His alternative is just one; leave. But, he has options to pursue for counsel from other couples who do share sex with people beside the spouse.

    The TrueSwingers social group that I find many dear, trustworthy friends in has a free membership with good access to everyone there who wants to share openly. In my circle there are numerous couples with years’ experiences with sex besides each other in line with their relationship. If it is possible to get yourself and your brother interested in joining this group, by all means, do so. Then begin searching for mature, usually older couples – there are many – who are sincere with their relationship, their lovers’ participation, their member friends, which you should seek to be accepted by them, and their sharing clearly their individual interests, sex and otherwise. Yes, you should consider sharing photos with your profile, but it is your discretion what those photos reveal. Look at numerous couple profiles before you post any, and before you begin seeking correspondence.

    It is an adults only site, and in that sense there are common sense guides to the interactions and content members share. There is a large membership so there are some who post offensive material, but moderators ask to be notified to weed it out.

    Basically, you and your brother share the issues he faces when trustworthy couples are found. You will discover that he is not alone in being the spouse not interested in sex with others, and usually it is the spouse that wants another lover who is a single member there. I suggest you take a deep look into seeking any advice from such members.

    Hope this helps a little. Just remember, good marriage is two or more(Polyamory families) lovers who care at least the same for the spouse(s) as for them self.

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  • Alger

    June 14th, 2017 at 12:04 PM

    Thank you for referencing the TrueSwingers site. You mention there are single members whose spouses are likely ones who don’t wish to swing. I know from reading your posts here that you don’t approve of such people….but alas, there are plenty out there, like me. You can read my details on my full post today. However I would like to ask you a question about TrueSwingers…..will they indeed, take single members? Will I have to lie about the fact that I’m doing it behind my wife’s back. Or should I just say she knows but is not interested? Or should I just say I’m single, period? Or do they even ask those questions, or care?

    Reason I ask as I would consider trying out swinging as a single person. New adventures, and all. Tried it once back in the 80s but was so drunk don’t remember much anything. I want to try again. I am sexually frustrated at home (see my post below), and am looking for an outlet that provides excitement that I’m missing. And even though I haven’t discussed with my wife, I already know that not only would she never go for it, but the total freakout would leave household and relationship aftershocks for a very long time, if not forever. She is an introvert who does not enjoy even having dinner with another couple. Sex with another couple. A non starter. I am trapped. If I do it it likely WILL be behind her back. Would be interested in your take on how a single person, sneaking around, would be accepted at TrueSwingers….or do I even have to mention anyting at all?

    Reply

  • Samuel C.

    June 14th, 2017 at 12:30 PM

    As a single guy, you’ll find your opportunities very, very limited. Exceptions would be for guys that are abnormally good looking, or abnormally hung. And even then…..not that many opportunities. If you were a single female….no problem. There is high demand and low supply. But single guys……low demand and high supply. Add in the fact that you’re wife doesn’t know or support this decision and you’re likely to have almost zero opportunities. Sorry. We have about 5 years swinging experience, just fyi. So that’s where this is coming from. Guys are a dime a dozen, and in 5 years we’ve been approached(mostly online) by hundreds. The one time we did want to have a threesome with another guy, we went on Tinder and found the best looking dude we could with the biggest penis and who was also able to talk with my wife and have chemistry. Again….because we could just pick from hundreds. Good luck, this won’t be the way that you get your needs met, though.

  • Alger

    June 14th, 2017 at 1:09 PM

    Thanks for the reply. I’m 6’2″ good looking, fit, athletic, do well IRL…alas, I’m 59. Which probalby relegates me to the nameless, faceless schmucks left behind in the online swinging world as a single dude. Guess I’m doomed to a sexless misery. Thought swinging would be a more predictable outlet, just join a club, etc. etc.
    Sigh.

  • ClaudeA

    May 1st, 2016 at 2:43 AM

    Stu, if your wife acknowledges that you, as her spouse, have equal power of consent and denial of her activity, and in that is where you consent to her activities, good. If she makes the sole, arbitrary choices to find sexual gratification beyond you, then your relationship is likely untenable, and Divorce is close. If it were me, and I was merely informed of this behavior without equal say, then the first thing I would require is mutual counsel with one or more confirmed relationship-restoring groups of people, and maybe one or more marriage counselors who actually have a history for restoring failing relationships. Intercourse is just one of many ways to sexually satisfy the craving for sex. As example, when my dear wife was hospitalized three years then she died, I was very blessed with a lady friend from years before who unexpectedly re entered my life and she shared some of the best intercourse with me of my life. But, with her I discovered that our intercourse did not satisfy her near the same as my oral and hand stimulation, and especially my deep tissue, loving massage of her body, especially her feet in a warm bath and gently massage then tucking her in for the night and returning to my bed alone, without any sex for me.

    I have had several lady friends since, but not one shares sex. One tries to, but her grandchildren and ailing mother she cares for take all her energy, so sex with her is moot. I still care deeply for her, and do “hubby” things to support her anyway I can. She asked me to share sex with her mother as a birthday gift one day last Fall. Her mother was so happy she cried, but she could not share intercourse, and she shared a very good bath with me, caressing and a little sexual stimulation in the bed next to my girlfriend before she became ill and could not continue. She asked my girlfriend several times if she wanted to share me, but my gal wanted mother to have all of me she desired. That was the last sex of any I’ve had, except for masturbation.

    I share this because love, real love, filters out anything else, so that casual sex is outside the relationship where it and those who care little about relationship integrity who practice it are mutually excluded. The couples who I care for in a swinger group I am member of, support good integrity, and respect that without mutual interest their sex with anyone else is wrong and disrespecting of their relationship.

    Perhaps in your own thoughts you can uncover things that you share with your wife in sharing your desire for her being satisfied sexually and your misgiving and feelings of being left out with her choices, and your desire to make your relationship with her the priority she feels sexually satisfied with to the extent you have in your strength to give her.

    Ladies’ sexual satisfaction is given mostly by what seems to us men as non-sexual stimulation. Kind words and listening ears; gentle touches, and frequent, appreciation for just her being your lover and friend; doing her chores; sharing frequent romantic times that remind her of your early relationship; flowers or similar kind, rewards for her shared love; hand in hand walks, sitting together, and laying beside her the way she feels most comforted by you in the night. These gestures mean more sexually to one’s lover lady than casual sex, and her appreciation for her lover who puts her on his to do lover support list goes way above lots of intercourse playtime.

    From your comment, Stu, it appears to me that your wife leaves behind casual lovers for the same reason that she leaves you behind – they know she is only temporary, and treat her as a source of sex, not a lady to support and love. That’s the reason she moves on, and if she does find a lover who does not require intercourse from her but truly blesses her with his selfless love and giving, she may well Divorce you for him. Think about it, it may make quite a difference in your thoughts about her meaning to you, and the way that you see your interplay with her. It takes little effort to share meaningful love making in physical ways that you do have energy for. Giving one’s entire attention to loving another returns more energy than it requires to do. This depth of selfless love heals both giver and receiver, together. Think about it, Stu.

    Reply

  • Steve

    May 21st, 2016 at 7:49 AM

    If she wants an open relationship, then it is time for you to get out. Go on with your own life and someday you will find the right woman for you. The woman you are with isn’t your type and I am sure you can do a lot better.

    Reply

  • lejonleonard

    June 4th, 2016 at 4:28 PM

    Putting your personal feelings over what your wife wants…..if you love your wife and at least she’s honest enough to tell you what she wants then you should always give her what she wants.its not like you do t know who she is just because she wants/found someone who else who can give her sexual pleasure that’s good to her.she’s letting you know she’s not going anywhere, she just wants more good sex,and that is what should matter to you,her feelings and her happiness because her being happy means you’re happy too.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    June 4th, 2016 at 9:16 PM

    lejonleonard! How precious and rare your selfless love is!

    Putting your personal feelings over what your wife wants . . . always give her what she wants. . . . she wants/found someone who else who can give her sexual pleasure that’s good to her. she’s letting you know she’s not going anywhere, she just wants more good sex,and that is what should matter to you, . . .”

    I’m member of a social nudists group that has all stripes of jealousy, and a few couples and us singles who practice the love others before self. Very few. The amazing part is that we who honestly desire the best sex and living for those we love and cherish have the most satisfying sex and friendships. It is no accident that those who prefer others’ best have their own best sex and all else relationship pleasures. Minus self-centered jealousy, the liberty to do all one can to pleasure the loved one(s) changes the root of Love and sexual satisfaction from the possessive, hate-based jealousy greedy heart frame to the joyful, happy and satisfied life we all want and deserve.

    So, lejonleonard, kudos to you! How rare and precious it is to share your heart!

    Reply

  • qflux

    September 22nd, 2016 at 1:13 AM

    So women should do that too then right? A guy who says “I need to have sex with lots of girls on the road”, the wife should not “put herself over him” but rather should “let him have his pleasure!”
    OR… in your worldview… is it only *women* that should enjoy this privilege?

    Reply

  • dreamer

    June 15th, 2016 at 11:30 PM

    Individually we are outwardly polygamous, and inwardly monogamous.
    Outwardly we fantasise, and tell ourselves we can easily love more than one person.
    Inwardly there is no room for your partner having there own lover in the mix, this violates your self identity, and rocks you to the core.

    This posses a conundrum, and the only solution I can see that works from all the posts in this thread is for you and your partner to take the same lover. That is, you both love this person, and find her / him sexually attractive. You must both make a sexual/emotional binding connection with this person, and intern your shared lover has the same feelings towards both of you……what are the odds :)

    I believe good sex is a hard wired need in most of us, and if that need is not being fulfilled we will ultimately go out and seek it else where. Which leads me to why I’m posting here.

    A couple of weeks ago I found myself getting hit on by a very attractive 25 year old at the gym. Not uncommon I know, but it really took me by surprise, and before I new it I was falling for this girl. Seriously, raised heartbeats whenever she came close, constantly thinking about her etc. All kinds of out of character thoughts were going through my head, and the reasoning went like this.

    1. I’ll have an affair – don’t be so blood stupid!
    2. Hmmmmm.
    3. What then.
    4. Gingerly introduce the notion of open marriage with my wife.
    5. Just get a grip you goose.

    So I’m now at paragraph 2. My game plan will be:

    1. Very carefully get to know this girl on a talking bases only (my wife goes to the same gym).
    2. Once we establish our desires for each other, I’ll let her know she has to also fall in love with my wife, and get my wife to do the same :)
    3. Once the bond between spouse and potential lover is established, I’ll slide into the picture.

    Of course all of this is my outward polygamous self talking, and my inward monogamous self is keeping watch at all times. I love my wife, and won’t do anything to damage the love we have for each other.

    I’ve since told my wife about the advances from this girl (my feelings towards her left out), and found it very liberating. We since have had many discussions regarding our long happy relationship together, and have a renewed affection for each other. Maybe my game plan won’t eventuate (ha ha), but I still have a beautiful wife, and health sex life. My wife is also very keen to come to the gym with me!

    Reply

  • jed g.

    June 24th, 2016 at 10:48 AM

    The real problem here is that you are not a real genuine man. If you were, you would be able to provide for your wife financially, and you wouldn’t have to expose her daily for 8 hours to strange men and women to create friendships and bond with… this is just asking for trouble.
    You have cornered yourself into a Beta Male by allowing your wife more time with strangers than she has with you. This failure started much earlier in your life than you might have imagined… you lack as a man, and due to the society we live in today, you must pay the ultimate price of sharing your wife with other men. Someone didn’t teach you right when you were growing up and you are paying for it today.

    Reply

  • jed g.

    June 24th, 2016 at 10:50 AM

    I strongly suggest you get a divorce because if she hasn’t cheated on you yet, she will.
    Then again as a Beta-Male I very much doubt you have any traces of self respect left in you, so you will probably put up with it and learn to put up with the abuse or even love it eventualy… while mother nature laughs at your fate.

    Reply

  • realist

    June 26th, 2016 at 9:15 PM

    Oooh….someone’s got an axe to grind….touchy touchy.

    Reply

  • dreamer

    June 26th, 2016 at 9:27 PM

    Jed – Where in my discussion do I mention exposing my wife to strange men. You might also stop to consider the irony in what I’m saying.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    June 27th, 2016 at 12:02 AM

    People who refuse to accept the fallacies or differences or unexpected anomalies and changes in others have very strong inferior issues and are ultimately weak and do not have a stable future. For someone to commit the breaking of a family due to the fragility of their expectations of monogamy or even of infallible sexual behavior of a spouse will be too weak to hold together for another relationship. Marriage is a contract, not a building or boat. Marriage is a relationship, not a plant. Two and more people make a relationship. A building or boat is one entity, and when it breaks, it sinks.

    Two buildings or two boats don’t form a living relationship. Each can change and not affect the other. Two people can and do change, and often against the will of either or both or the whole relationship. Communication maintains relationships; communications between them have no effect on buildings or boats. In the world of today, the false expectations of faithful relationships with no room for variation causes untold marital disharmony, and we see the results – divorce never in history was higher.

    Liberals demand their detractors remain silent, clearly defining liberals as weak and ineffective at managing change and opposition and, negotiation.

    Lasting marriage weathers anything. It is the love and respect for one another that decides the degree of commitment required to remain with the original contract.

    Why have family if only anticipated boundaries are allowed? Do you accurately predict the outcome of pregnancy and your own life and health? Can you marry with the guarantee that your spouse(s) will remain as at your wedding(s)? Then accept change, even with sexual issues. The sexual interplay is always going to include change, and only the informed will communicate enough to maintain their spouse(s)’ sexual satisfaction inside the relationship, even when other lovers are required. Always remember your home is more than enough reason to maintain your marriage.

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  • lejonleonard

    July 6th, 2016 at 8:31 PM

    She’s your wife,you love each other,give her what she wants.she’s not going anywhere.you shouldn’t have to question this because she’s honest enough to cone to you as a lady with her love for you and you should want to see her happy in every aspect of her life.even if that means someone else giving her more sexual pleasure than you are.she’s your wife and their lay.

    Reply

  • violet

    July 12th, 2016 at 3:34 AM

    I am not an advocate of open marriage. However, for those who want an open marriage, please allow me to offer some thought. In most discussions about open marriage, there is one element missing, namely, husband’s financial obligation. At basic level, marriage is an exchange of women’s surplus reproductive ability in return to men’s surplus productive ability. Thus, marriage requires three commitment. Emotional support, which is both husband’s and wife’s obligations, sexual support, which is essentially wife’s obligation, and financial support, which is essentially a husband’s obligation. When people discuss open marriage, only two elements are discussed. Emotional support is maintained, as husband and wife stays committed. Meanwhile, sexual support, the wife’s obligation, is eliminated, as wife does not have any more obligation to be offer sexual service to husband. However, husband is still requires to support wife. It is easy to see that in this kind of imbalance, open marriage will be more beneficial to wife. She will more easily get more partners than husband.
    If honest open marriage is to be carried out, then emotional attachment needs to be maintained. Wife is free to escape the obligation of sexual service to husband; her body, her choice. However, husband should also be free to escape the obligation of financial service to wife; his money, his choice. In such a configuration, let’s see if wife still wants to pursue open marriage.

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  • ClaudeA

    July 13th, 2016 at 3:03 PM

    violet, isn’t that assumption you present as a scenario somewhat simplistic? I mean, does everyone who shares so-called “open marriage” fit the scenario that you state as matter of fact?

    Perhaps many individual cases that have any number of variables make it difficult to be matter of fact about any relationship. The counselors who support this discourse care for a multitude of differing relationships on many variables. Relationships also change over time and experience, and they can get staid, and boring all too easy. I’m part of a wonderful swinger social group that discusses intimate details of the most deep sexual, financial and emotional experiences of a group across the world with vastly differing social norms and customs, even for committed marriages that the couple do everything thinkable to maintain and improve every day, while sexually loving others.

    Our relationships actually take community to survive for long. We need outside support from those who care deeply for our marriage, and we can share sex with these intimate friends, too, and have stronger marriages in every way, IF we will end jealousy, selfish pride and seek to end differences with acceptance and honesty that we’re simply different.

    Anyway, thought I’d share a bit. You’re on track for seeing the likelihood of differences entering the added sexual relationships, but those very differences provide opportunities to the couple to grow in appreciation for each other and to understand and love each other deeper and with more commitment to each other’s well being.

    Reply

  • Peter

    July 15th, 2016 at 6:14 AM

    I think that when you refuse your wife to fulfill her sexual fantasies, she will do it behind your back. When you discover that, your marriage is really broken. So, I would say, let her freely explore her sexuality without doing it yourself. In this way, you can show her your love that she needs, and therefore she will stay with you. My wife says that she will never leave me, because no other men give her the sexual freedom and financial security she get from me. Besides, we have a family.

    Reply

  • milootoole

    July 15th, 2016 at 3:01 PM

    Off subject-but- married 5years at the time. My wife had been stopping on Friday night for a pop started drinking -at a bar near her work with her coworkers. It was customary where we worked. Usually home by 7:30 to 8. I did the sme with my work mates. cannot do/not remember any bad incidents between us or in our marriage. She had asked me to join hjer since I passed by on my way home. About 2 months before the “incident”. She started drinking to the point of intoxication which she had not done before. I jo9ined he one night and she asked me if I was checking her out. Same thing the next week, so I stopped going. Other than that-great marriage, sexually active, seemed to really enjoy life and sex with me. One night, a weeknight, she did not come home- all night. She showed up the next mid morning, still, apparently under the influence. We had discussed whether we would be interested in the theme here of open or sharing in our marriage. Neither of us had an interest. I am traditional and conservative on marriage.

    She said she ahd stopped at the bar with her boss and had a few. Her boss , according to her story, invited her to come to his house instead of driving home because of being drunk. His wife was away a visiting her family for the week. She said she fell asleep on hi couch and didn’t wake until next morning. “Nothing happened.” I went ballistic but calmed wown and told her we would talk that evening. We did–I wouldn’t ;et her discuss the night before. I only taljked about the future and our love for each other. Do you believe her story? Also that was many years ago. Never happened again, she was home on time all the time after that. She limited her drinking and was safe on the road. We are still together after 20 more years . There was never another incident like that and we never discussed it again. Sadly for me, while undergoing counselling for other problem, I recalled the approx 2 month span which ended with her over nighter. Now, I lose sleep. I have a compulsion to question her but I do not want to screw up 30 years boff happyoiness over it–but it’a eating a hole in me.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    July 16th, 2016 at 3:25 PM

    milootoole, You are right “On Topic,” I think. The mental trauma we experience about sexual relationships is what ruins sexual relationships, and sex. The issue we all face is that hard as we want and try, we do not always live the way we promise, want, and even should. The issues with marriage are that this is the wrong frame of reference for building successful sexual relationships in, and on. The right frame is that the one(s) who share our sexual intercourse and provide the children we desire are fallible beings whose intentions are rarely their whole life’s experiences.

    So, reformat your marital frame of reference so that instead of making your spouse responsible for your own sense of marital success, you unilaterally resolve to make your matiral sense of, and practice of YOUR marital success FOR ALL her life YOUR responsibiloty, and all her to make all the so-called “mistakes” she needs to be the successful lady she is to be for HER good. In other terms, YOU supply all your wife needs to be safe at HOME with you WHEN she wants, and you CONTINUE supporting her FULLY when she is NOT meeting your perception(s) of successful wife.

    This I call “Selfless Loving.” I am responsible FOR MY FULL SUPPORT of my lovers, married to them or not, FOR THEIR OWN best Life interests, and I am RESPONSIBLE to each one for her CONTINUING and stable support and safety IN our sexual relationship, for MY Lifetime.

    This frame of marital reference provides many, many peace-generating attributes for US. Just two are worth it all

    1. The SATISFACTION in MY heart that MY selfless loving for my lovers is maintained and optimized continually.

    2. The clear knowledge in MY heart that MY lover(s) are 100% safe to be and do and want and desire ANY other sexual relationship THEY find themselves in.

    Stop and consider this, milootoole!

    WHEN YOU sit down at the last of YOUR living, and tally up YOUR entire Lifetime, WHAT will matter? Is it your OWN well being first? Or, is the most significant contribution YOU made to YOUR Life that which benefits YOUR loved ones, no matter how badly YOU FEEL about their behavior, words, and attitudes?

    In the end, seek the peace that lives beyond your life, milootoole.

  • Nicole

    July 18th, 2016 at 12:13 AM

    This thread has been very insightful. I’m hoping that others could shed some light into my situation as well. I’m going to try to explain my situation as best as I can. Thank you in advance.

    Background: My husband and I are in our mid 30’s and have known each other since we were teenagers (over 20 years). He has been in and around my family (including around my mother) for this long. We have been married for over 10 years.

    Six years ago my husband revealed to me that he has been attracted to (including sexually attracted to) my single mother for the majority of our marriage. Over the past recent years he has slowly opened up to me and shared more about these feelings he has for her.

    A little background into my mom and my husbands’ relationship: Before we married and a couple years into our marriage, they have always gotten along well. They’ve always had a teasing (with words), flirty, touchy-feely (hand on shoulder, hand on leg, arm around neck, sitting on lap) type of relationship. I was young and naive, never thought much of it. Liked that they got along so well. Felt more of like a good mother-son relationship. 
    One day, something switched mentally for my mom, and she came up with the idea that her flirtatiousness could be putting our marriage in jeopardy. She has never verbally told either of us this. This is what my husband gathers. It wasn’t because of something I said or did, but, if I can try to reiterate what my husband told me, he believes it was when he revealed to her that he likes her in a more than a mother-in-law type of way. She, then, started worrying about our marriage and started asking him if and when we would ever have children and start a family.

    Fast forward to recent years:
    My husband has always had a very high sex drive. I have struggled to keep up with him. Early in our marriage, due to immaturity, ignorance, and naivety, I didn’t really know that he needed sex so often. I was never really sat down and taught that sex is paramount in my marriage. I thought we were having enough. There were reasons I’ve come to understand a bit more why we weren’t. If I didn’t like something he did or he made me upset, or didn’t meet my expectations, I let bitterness and resentment fester in me and put me off to want to come close to him. I swept our issues and my thoughts under the rug. He has talked to me about this in the past, but I have never been a self-reflector type of person, so I’d hear what he has to say and just move on without taking deep regard to what he’s communicating to me. He, on the other hand, has always been good at self awareness and thought. I’ve since learned (and still am learning) that what you do or don’t do in a relationship or in life will surface and things have their consequences be them good or bad.

    Throughout the years, he has put countless hours of thought into figuring out why our relationship was how it is. In the recent years, he has begun to think about ways that we can stay married even with our mismatched sex drives. A few months ago we had our second child and according to him this has been “the lowest point of our intimate relationship of our entire marriage.” He is hurting, feels left alone to “take care” of himself for way too long now. Due to the nature of how our baby was born, I am going to need quite some time to heal, so we haven’t even delved into that territory yet.
    He is starting to resent the fact that he has tried numerous times to broach the sex subject and I’ve been a deer in headlights. I have not offered solutions. My inaction to come along side him and remedy/offer solutions to this problem is causing resentment. He feels like I am blocking him from moving forward. He has now told me he is sexually frustrated and wants to look outside our relationship to get satisfaction. He feels like he has been patient all these years, we’re not getting any younger, and essentially it’s time for something to change big time because we can’t go an like this. 

    He loves me and wants to stay married to me. He said he chose me and he would do it all over again if he could. (I don’t hear that very often – it was nice to hear ) He said that instead of just saying ‘forget all of you (the family), I can’t take this anymore” and leaving us or doing something rash like having an affair, he has chosen to bring this topic up to me so we can work together to solve it.  According to him, he’s put “more thought than most people would” into trying to find a solution to us being “unequally yoked,” as he put it, in the sex department. He has gone down different paths of thought to try to understand our situation and has tried to take as many angles and perspectives into account the best he could. He wants to collaborate with me to find an immediate solution to his sexual frustration. It’s an ongoing daily struggle for him, of course. Lots of temptation out there.

    He has come up with several solutions. It requires us to think outside the box and basically get rid of all the social conditioning we have been bombarded with all our life.  One solution (which keeps coming up in our conversations) involves my mother. This is his ideal solution. He remembers the days where their connection was great (where they clicked and seemed to like each other) and wants to recapture the fun and flirty relationship he once had with her. He believes I am key in helping restore their connection. He wants me to essentially convince my mom that I am a happy wife and I’m cool with whatever they want to do. He believes that my mom is fearful of breaking her daughters marriage up so whatever I can do to allay those fears is good. He wants me to bring her guard down and let her know that I’m ok with them being fun, flirty and touchy with each other. 

    According to him, these are his reasons why she is an ideal fit as the other woman to satisfy him.  1. She has responded well to him in the past. (They had a past encounter alone where she had pain in her sciatic nerve (in her buttock muscle) and asked him to massage it and they interacted in a sexual way that really turned him on and she knew it) 2. She is my mom whom is really loyal to me (Besides my brother, I’m “all she’s got” in this world). She thinks I can do no wrong. She wouldn’t want to lose me, so my husband feels that “it’s not like she’s going to run off” with him and leave me and her daughter and grand babies behind. In other words, I don’t have to fear being left. 3. If they were to engage in intercourse, there is no risk of pregnancy because she can’t have children anymore. 4. She’s not some random stranger. We know she doesn’t have any STI’s. 5. He feels he would appreciate me more because I have “allowed” them to be close. His resentment towards me and his sexual frustration would subside.

    For several years now there has been an awkward tension between them where they haven’t gotten along. I’ve been playing peacemaker, man in the middle for them because I want them to get along. He has made several attempts to talk to her privately, to no avail. She puts the blame on him and changes the subject. She doesn’t like confrontation and doesn’t know how to have a mature conversation. In the past several years, she has even changed the way she dresses so as not to attract attention from him. No more showing cleavage, no more tight pants and high heels. She loved to dress like this. She is now more conscious of when she bends over to not attract. She wears long shirts that cover up. He has picked all this up, something she wasn’t doing in the past. He doesn’t like it and feels she’s not really like this. I always knew he loved the way she was. They share a lot of the same “likes”: beer, cars, crass humor at times. I always saw this as endearing not that he was sexually attracted to her. Boy, was i wrong…and naive, and stupid.

    I think his ideal solution is super risky, unrealistic and would require a thousand hurdles on both her part and mine to overcome. So many questions run through my mind when I think about it. Why my mom of all people? She’s so close to me? This has the potential to really break up my moms and my relationship. On another level, what will our kids think as they grow (why are dad and grandma so close?). I think my mom is going to think this is crazy of me (of us) to even attempt to be ok with this.

    Other factors to consider: My mom has very traditional views of marriage. She is also a very judgmental person. She is not a reasonable or rational thinker. She is super close to our children. I can name so many other reasons why this isn’t a good idea. He probably thinks all my reasons are reason TO go for it. He believes its worth a shot. Things are not working as it is, he can’t continue on like this, so something’s gotta change. He believes that I could say something or act a certain way that would make her comfortable to open up to his advances, like in the past. He’s trying to recapture the past. My husband is a very rational thinker, yet he still believes this could fly. I think it’s absurd, really. But he really wants me to be ok with this. He said he would love if I can somehow unjealously be ok with him being sexually satisfied by someone other than me. I suppose I need to at least consider this for his sake and our family’s sake.(?) I’m confused and have a lot to think about. How can we come to a resolution? How am I to appease him and at the same time not trample on my own feelings? What do I make of all this? We are so solid in so many other areas of our marriage except the sex department. It would be a shame to throw all these years away. I need help sorting out my thoughts.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    August 21st, 2016 at 2:16 PM

    Hi, Nicole:-) Just a month has passed from your wonderful, insightful sharing. Not long enough to end your dilemma, yet time in which to communicate.

    Have you worked on defining ways to show hubby that your interest in resolving his deep sexual intercourse desires mean that you will join him intimately to resolve them, actively so, yourself? It would be so good to have a private venue to share potential resolutions here!

    Honestly, Nicole, as my own male sexual intercourse fullfilment pursuits continue to open many, many avenues of responsible, satisfying sexual relationships, I encourage you, mom, hubby and anyone the three of you implicitly love and trust in experience together, to open up active sexual intercourse discovery, discussion and exploration together.

    Teach your mother to sexually, intomately communicate both her and your dreams, desires, attractions, recreational sex ideas, caring, spousal sex concepts, and BE sexual together yourselves. Know one knows the sexual desires and cravings better than mother and daughter who are close in every other way. This, in my intimate sexual experience, provides far more satisfying sexual intercourse for each lover than going outside where family ties are with others, and continuity of sexual, emotional, and resolving family issues do not provide the nucleus of “home.”

    Respectful intercourse within ones greater family may be socially spurned, yet responsible, caring adult sexual intimacy with extended family contains the solutions inside one’s home, eliminating hurdles of trust, when the aex is fully transparent with all, and those remaing hurdles are easier to remove when viewed as common family pounts to find resolutions for eliminating.

    The old addage, “Where ther’s a will, there’s a way, ” fits here:-)

    For me, outside counselors will try to instill their bias(es) into any resolution counsel, and you risk taking my biases, here, as well, Nicole. Be fair to mom, hubby, yourself, and your children by opening loving dialog with mom and hubby, together, sexual intercourse is the base issue, so directly address all the specific innhibitions that mom, hubby and you know of, together, then dig deeper into underlying fears, learned ideas about, social programming about, and honest ways the three of you have to attain sexual balance and family integity with respectful sexual intercourse provisions to honestly satisfy each and all of you, together as one whole family.

    Make a little sense? Hope and pray for your loving, complete, sexually happy family resolutions, Nicole, hubby, and mother:-)

    Reply

  • Davew

    September 27th, 2016 at 6:02 PM

    I think your thinking is very clear and precise. I wonder if your husband is as articulate as you.
    Intellectual jealousy acts out in strange ways. Sounds like you have a lot he doesn’t.
    You’ve got all the pieces of the puzzle, and I believe you are well able to put them together. You may not like the picture that emerges.
    Perhaps it is an “exit” sign you do not want to believe.
    I’ve gone way out on a p overbalanced limb here, my intuitions and sensitivities often do my thinking for me. If I’m so very wrong, I apologize. But you have my support and my prayers for you and your children. Mom too. Things happen, and clearly she has done all she can to say “no”.
    Hope to hear more. Healing begins with seeing the problem… Then you must be your own surgeon and remove the parts that seem diseased.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    July 18th, 2016 at 4:36 PM

    Nicole, I experienced one of the most satisfying sexual encounters of my 70 years with my lady friend and her mom, at the close of a birthday date my friend brought her dear mom, a heart operation and recent cancer treatment patient to an afternoon date where mom and me spent the entire time making out, even riding in the back seat of her car as my friend drove, then mother insisted that daughter get a motel room and call me in for the night with mom, so she could have a long orgasm like her late husband who had ED all their 39 years used to give her.

    My lady friend undressed and crawled into the other bed with a book. Mom loved a bath with me, then we walked to the other bed and proceeded with making love except not intercourse, as her aged vagina is far too hardened and her emotional stress much to tight for me to soften in just a few days, let alone the short hours of that night. Then she became violently ill and we had to go our separate ways.

    The point I want to share is how utterly “right” and filled with love the three of us were. Several times mom asked my friend, “You want Claude?”, to which my sweetheart always said, “No, he’s yours tonight.”

    We are very close friends. I love my lady’s mom just as I love my lady. But mom says she does not want to conclude our love sharing, and yet always loves on me when I visit, just not physically. My lady is a grandma, and widow.

    For you, Nicole, much as you feel confused and deeply in love with hubby and mom, mother is concerned with the fears she has, founded or not, about repercussions with your children, you, hubby, and herself. Honestly, it seems she has misgivings about giving herself permission to share intercourse with hubby transparent and full disclosure with you, whom she obviously respects, loves and cherishes for all the daughter, mother, and wife-lover your commitment to hubby, children, your grand kids, and your community, beyond her life, your life, and the lives of your children.

    Nicole, do your best to get down completely inside you mother’s heart, to be her best, most trusted friend. Be in full confidence with her on every level about her insights, aspirations, and her needs, sexually, as grandmother, and as wife. Make her entire space with both you and hubby completely safe to open herself to you both in the most intimate depths. I’m a practicing naturist(nudist in most people’s minds), and this makes it much more simple to be honest, open, intimately involved and fully transparent sexually and otherwise with anyone honest enough to respectfully share the same with me.

    The solution to your dilemma is not outside the three of you, but as your superb mind and loving heart melds with mother and hubby, that beautiful solution is right where is should be for the family you are together, inside the three of you, together.

    Also, HUGE kudos to you, hubby, and mom! What a wonderful family the three of you are together! Love to share a long, loving hug!

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  • Max

    July 28th, 2016 at 8:37 AM

    Why do so many people on here assume it’s impossible to love more than one person at the same time? You don’t love one of your children more than the other. It’s just jealousy.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    July 28th, 2016 at 10:39 AM

    When people ever wake up about their delusion of marriage being “right,” they then see they’ve been duped by religious and social controllers to take on the mindset of jealousy and ownership over another being.

    You’re absolutely correct, Max.

    However, in being duped, there is a valid health issue at stake for people entering into responsible sexual family ties. Both mental and physical, and the spiritual component of respect and integrity for the sexual activities, mostly, involved. Ladies and us guys have issues inside when our sexual trust for those we share sex with in respect and love shares sex with people we do not share mutual respect and love for, sexually, especially. Some here state that it’s fine for their life mate to share sex with others so long as there is not emotional attaching. That’s garbage, since the very sexual involvement is based on emotion and attachment.

    So, back to you, Max, it comes down to jealousy and disrespect, usually on the parts of all involved as it takes transparent acts and communications and mutual love and respect for each one involved in any sexual relationship.

    My 2 cents

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  • Sam C

    August 10th, 2016 at 5:55 AM

    No judgement, but I don’t see and have never understood how denying your partner….someone who you supposedly “love” with all your heart, new experiences is actually love. It’s selfishness, and it’s lack of trust. It’s normal to want to have sex with other people, at least for me and lots and lots of people, apparently, considering the infedility and divorce rate. Yes, there may be jealousy. Jealousy is your own problem, not your spouses. It is not their job to protect you from bad feelings, if their mere desires are the things that are producing them. It’s your job to understand them and get over them and not try to control your spouses life. If merely touching another humans genitals together with theirs is enough to make their love for you fade, it wasn’t much of a love to start with, imo. “If you love someone, set them free.”

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  • Ben

    August 21st, 2016 at 9:14 AM

    I am shocked by the answers you got, and how many couples are perusing open marriages!
    So much terrible advice!
    I am so sorry for you, if this is really happening to you. The purpose of marrying in the first place is a promise of loving and trusting each other.
    What many people don’t understand is that sex should be the utmost expression of love and intimacy. Marriage is about creating intimacy, security and trust. You achieve this through caring for each other, kissing, touching, talking, but the ultimate expression of intimacy and love is sex. This is where everything comes together, touching, kissing, talking, expressing your feelings.
    If your wife cannot see sex as an expression of love, this is very sad. Sex isn’t a “sport”, or a “fun activity”. It is the special treasure that you only share with your loved one. At least that what it is supposed to be.

    You should try to pursue counseling with her. If she doesn’t like the idea, and insists on an open marriage, I would recommend you to divorce her. You deserve better, a person who can be loyal to you, and only share her intimacy with you. However, first try to talk with her, and try to find out if she isn’t satisfied with something.

    And to all those that commented that they are having a great relationship pursuing an open marriage, I call bull***t. You cannot experience the same amount of intimacy and satisfaction, if you are switching partners. You will never be able to experience this feeling of being loyal, this closeness, this feeling of security. It just isn’t the same, once you have slept with a dozen men/women. Science has also shown that during sex, our body release a chemical, which creates a bond to our partner. Spiritually as well, we can’t ignore the effect sex has on our emotions and mind. I believe most people that pursue this kind of relationship, have had parents which either weren’t happily married, divorced, or also had fidelity problems.

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  • ClaudeA

    August 21st, 2016 at 1:19 PM

    Ben!!! Incredibly self-centric, what I’ve intimately experienced as religious putrid jealous bigotry by involved senior clergy involved romantically in my marriage behind my back, and, sir, complete lack, as in “void” of empathy, caring, respect, marital integrity, and, yes, all selfless Love for one’s own flesh!

    Sir, if you can, struggle in all your might to understand that you are not “God” in any way, and as not possessing Divine understanding of even your own self, do not in any possibly way indicate for others, especially you own flesh, what is “right.”

    If, as I am 99% certain, you have “Boble” ideas of marriage, go find the prophet who was instructed by The Deity to faithfully husband a lifetime whore. Divorce was no option for the same reason that this man loves his wife unconditionally. And, yes, I know the false claims by the church about its gods advocating divorce, but by their deity, NOT by men.

    Knowing original scrpture in some depth, there is a plethora of Divine illustrations advocating open and even swinging family integrity, responsible, and even irresponsible sexual relationships. The reason is clear to those who practice selfless loving as The Deity commands His family. We are finite, lacking infinite understanding, and, in our dependence on His Grace for our every heartbeat, then it’s in our very best interest to selflessly love others as He says and shows us by examples to also do.

    So, please, Ben, consider these, and perhaps loving your spouse(s) as your own self will give you the loving, contented living that honest sexual intercourse in respectful love with others is Divinely designed to provide us.

    Reply

  • Ben

    August 21st, 2016 at 9:24 PM

    Hi Claude,
    I am confused by your reply. I did not mention religion in my post, and yet you are talking about scriptures and prophets.
    In your eyes, what is sex? Is it an expression of love, or is it a fun activity? You decide.
    If you chose the latter, you are degrading the value of sex in my opinion. It would be similar to buying a computer, and using it as a chair. It definitely can be used to sit on, but that is not its purpose. I believe its similar to sex. You can use it as a sport, and as a pleasurable activity, or as an expression of love.

  • ClaudeA

    August 22nd, 2016 at 11:18 PM

    Thank you, Ben. I believe that the specific way that your comment reads intones the direct influence of Christian church values. In my opinion, that is specific rendering into this discussion Church sexual teaching. Did you not have this background base of reference in the comment you left here?

    In any case, your question here is rhetorical, and presumes everyone has your senses of sexual values. Tell ne if I am missing the boat on this, Ben.

    Not all share your base of reference for their lifetime sexual companion. There are a plethora of other valid ways, means and reasons people form life companionships. Sexual parts are just that, parts, not the grounding factor of many committed relationships. May I suggest that it may be in your interests to widen your perspective to understand more about other relationship than the one you focus on and apparently try to force everyone to accept?

    Thanks.

    Reply

  • Ben

    August 24th, 2016 at 10:15 AM

    Hi Claude,
    I do not believe that what I said, has anything to do with religion, or with faith. My religion does not teach me that sex is supposed to be the utmost expression of conjugal love. I figured it out myself, through meditation, studying, and experience.
    I do not believe my question to you is rhetorical at all. It is an honest question, and I would appreciate an answer from you, if you are open to it. How do you view sex? Does it hold a deeper value to you, as in being able to express your love through it, or is it more of a fun, pleasurable activity?

    Everyone has to decide on their own what is best for them, so I am not forcing my opinion on anyone. I was just stating what I believe, and I have the same right to do so as you do.

    I believe that only sharing your sexuality with one person is much more valuable. It brings greater satisfaction in the long run, and creates a stronger bond between partners, one of trust and intimacy.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    August 24th, 2016 at 1:22 PM

    Thank you, Ben. The clear individual and very often religion-biased marital sexual values that your comment bring to this discourse are valuable, yet, most often lead couple to the severe damage of abandoning one’s vows of for better and worse.

    In any case, your challenge that I succumb to an argument over your marital values is moot to me. This is no place to frustrate over sexual value, but it is a place to share healing words to encourage people to search for what you claim is your right to arrive at your own sexual valuation. Sorry to disappoint, Ben, but no-go.

  • qflux

    September 22nd, 2016 at 1:25 AM

    I’m a stone cold atheist.
    IMO religion is probably the biggest scourge to have infected the human race. Used to rationalize atrocities since we came out of the caves.
    Has ZERO to do with valuing fidelity, sorry. Just because you really really really believe that YOUR way is THE way, and have elevated this to some quasi-religious dogma of your own, does *not* make it broadly applicable. Even at 70.

    Reply

  • godfreyknows

    September 8th, 2016 at 9:37 AM

    I’m a man of 30 and I have made a decision not to marry. Women are beautiful but the headache they can bring a man makes the effort not worth it.already many guys I know have learnt to be content and happy while single. I know marriage as an institution will last till Jesus returns(Matthew 24:38-40) but I will reconsider it when things improve.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    September 9th, 2016 at 1:12 AM

    Hey, godfreyknows! May I encourage you a bit? Let’s always be aware that marriage is a fantasy at best! Even the ideas we people who find someone to love in the family way and plan to marry are living in a fantasy! Them after the wedding, it’s all fantasy!

    Why do I say this? The expectations we have about relationships before they are experienced are not real. No matter how carefully we map out our future, the map has errors, and our imagination is just a fantasy.

    So, instead of the fantasy you limit your mind to about marriage, may I encourage you to live every day, all day, in the wonderful experience each moment brings, and if-when a lady who is kind and good for you comes into your life, accept her as part of the reality of your life, not the fantasy world you limit your future to here?

    Hope this helps!

    Reply

  • lovingman

    September 10th, 2016 at 8:14 AM

    So far, there are still a lot of people who don’t understand why those of us who let our wives sleep with other men do so. We have many different reasons. As for me, simply, because I can’t satisfy my wife sexually, my tool is only 3 inches long and my wife almost never had orgasm with mine but when she got a 7 or 8 incher she could cum multiple times in one session. As a human being, she deserves pleasures to the fullest as any others too.

    Reply

  • godfreyknows

    September 10th, 2016 at 8:32 PM

    (To Lovingman, can’t reply properly to your comment because of my phone browser)
    Your wife married you knowing you had a small penis. So that small penis excuse is weak.

    You fear divorce because Feminism has made it so easy for women to cash out of marriage that you are willing even to consider the ultimate humiliation of having your wife get intimate with another man just to ensure your union survives one more day.

    Even your own mind is helping you along in the best way it knows how: by fetishizing your fears and ensuring you derive pleasure from the whole thing.its the mind’s own mechanism of copying with what it can’t prevail over,since sex begins in the mind to start with.

    Well say hello to a whole new set of headaches. Where before you only felt insecure about the longevity of your marriage,now add the constant worry about STIs. Where you felt inadequate about the size of your penis,now add the disrespect you will get for sharing your wife with other men.

    Appeasement doesn’t work so well with women. Bribing her with permission to sleep with other men won’t make her stay if she really wants to go. And the fact that she asks for it doesn’t mean she must have it. And if you give it to her doesn’t mean she will respect you for it and love you more. In fact just the opposite will happen.

    Giving in to an outrageous demand by a woman only makes her feel emptier and opens the door for her to ask for even more outrageous things for you.
    But what’s the use of me writing all this! You have already surrendered to the power of the vagina. And the world has lost one more man.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    September 10th, 2016 at 10:16 PM

    godfreyknows, IMHO, it is impossible for anyone to be any little bit more absolutely WRONG than what you post here. Your determined hate for what is selfless love is simply intolerable to me. Whatever motivates your words is the opposite of caring, gentle, kind love, and I certainly pity anyone gullible enough to stay with you.

    I find it impossible to be sorry for standing up to what you leave here in response to caring people sharing their intimate sexual issues. Do stay permanently away from entering ANY form of counseling service. Please, godfreyknows

    Reply

  • lovingman

    September 10th, 2016 at 10:12 PM

    Don’t worry about me and my wife. It’s been 30 years now and she’s still deeply in love with me. She had sex with other men several times a year since the first encounter, only missed 4 years when she bore my children. She always respect me during and after those sex encounters. Since she is very happy to have her sexual needs fulfilled without hurting her marriage to me, I have no regrets.

    Reply

  • godfreyknows

    September 11th, 2016 at 6:19 PM

    Don’t insult love by labelling your alternative lifestyle as love. The fact that you have to find your own corner on the internet to find comfort and encouragement in numbers doesn’t magically convert your fetish into a healthy legitimate form of attraction. The truth is that you know you are just a fringe movement and many who partake in it keep the lifestyle secret from family and social circle.
    I don’t even see you including this lifestyle in your teachings to your children on love.
    Ours has become a society where “everything goes” and to insist on loyalty and exclusivity quickly gets you branded as unloving and selfish and unreasonable. Yet we seem to be forgetting it was love that made you single out your wife among many ladies and marry her,how can it also be love when you reverse that process and give other men access to your wife? How quick are we to forget that on your wedding it was just you and your wife with no extras to speak of! That was love.
    We are all free to do as we would in our marriages,but to use marriage as a cover for immorality under misguided beliefs of love serves only to weaken marriage and make it unappealing to those who have not yet tied the knot.

    Reply

  • Sam C

    September 11th, 2016 at 9:00 PM

    Well…thank you for the clarification, godfreyknows, on what love is. I think I got it now.

    To be clear…..giving and devoting your whole life, in every objective way, is not love to godfreyknows. If you devote almost of your awake, non working hours to your family, home with them at night, do homework with the kids, fix dinner for your partner and family. Mow the lawn. Karate, soccer, gymnastics. Get them off to school. Have great sex a few times a week, 15 years into the relationship. Send each other sexy messages on Facebook. Totally crush our work lives, both pretty damn successful. Kids are smart, extremely well adjusted and cute as a button.

    That’s not love? None of that counts…..even a little? It all comes down to sex.
    All of that would have to go away if she touched her genitals to someone else’s genitals one night? Nothing that happened before that counts for anything? I can’t understand how that is such a big betrayal.

    I’d be much more hurt if she said bad things about me to someone, much more upset if she misused our common resources(read:money), if she left me out of the picture in some way, than I would be if she got aroused and decided to rub her genitals on someone else’s genitals(I’ve repeated this phrase enough to know that it’s going to become part of my lexicon now).

    The phrase “someone else’s genitals” is great, as if genitals could belong to someone else. You may defer decisions about this region of your body to your partner, but they’re still very much yours. You may even profess ownership over those parts if you’re into kink, and say they are someone else’s. You may make certain people hard as a rock by telling them that they own your genitals. But your genitals will ACTUALLY still be yours.

    Love is a verb. It’s an action. You do it daily. Support, encouragement, resources. It’s no different than what your parents gave you. Support, encouragement, resources. In the good loving relationships, the other person gives it back. In bad ones, they don’t. Getting hung up on what happened last Friday night when we were drunk and people started taking off their clothes isn’t good for any relationship. YMMV. Have fun as much as you can and be true to each other.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    September 12th, 2016 at 12:50 PM

    Awesome, Sam! The Life Happens part of sharing it with one’s life companion is give, and give some more and if it hurts, just see how that same giving back to you hurts your other gender lover who is just as confounded over the gender differences each of you cannot fathom, but make allowance for anyway. If its sexual issues that making room for other sexual participants who honestly respect and care about each of your best interests can supply, then together you share this necessary part of your love.

    Thanks for supporting honest, caring marriages that share the fun and not so fun and the hopes and interruptions of Life for two life companions who build and maintain their own family and home.

  • ClaudeA

    September 11th, 2016 at 9:05 PM

    godfreyknows, playing “god” with anyone is like the Deity describes as a tw-edged sword. 1st, there is no possible method you have that brings full awareness of anyone elses’ situation. 2nd, there is no awareness on your own part of the Deity having one famous recorder of His Reality record for all people to know the following: “The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the Deity search the heart, [I] try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings.”

    That is so dead simple to find with any search tool I’ll leave it up to you to discover who recorded it, to whom it is meant for, and, if my reading through the vitriolic comments I see under your name here are accurate, I suspect you have not the smallest intention of having the least accurate understanding about your own heart and attitude. Please, since you’re so determined that your hatred for all other loving ways and people who practice gentle kindness and respect for the one most important people being in their life – their spouse – just get your heart in tune with what honest, respectful, selfless love really is. Ot’s OK to rant; not OK to point accusing fingers into others’ faces when in your own eye a massive log of love obstruction blocks off all your vision.

    Reply

  • lovingman

    September 11th, 2016 at 9:07 PM

    In my view, letting my wife starve sexually or in other words, keeping her from enjoying sex all her life is not love at all.

    Reply

  • qflux

    September 22nd, 2016 at 1:37 AM

    Right, but you and Sam are cuckolds. Like… happily. Claude is.. well… Claude.
    Maybe this will help… Some of us are *not* cuckolds. We *do* have average to above average “equipment” (I’ll speak the language you understand). And guess what? SOME women *still* “need some NEW adventure!” instead of *being mature adults* and figuring out WHAT that REALLY means. And some guys say “ok” to that and guess what? She leaves for a new guy. 90% of the time. Maybe higher. And the irony is… there are MEN out there doing that to THEIR wives who were loyal. This is because some people are just *not right* for each other, but rather than divorce, they seek BS solutions so they can find an escape route in safety.
    YOU, and the other posters, are alt-lifestylers. YOU are a cuck. Your WIFE is a dom. She enjoys her position of sexual power and gets off on it EVERY BIT AS MUCH as you enjoy posting about your ‘ 3″ penis ‘ on the web and stroking to her stories. You two probably ARE a fit.
    Claude is… well… Claude. Maybe Sam is the same as you. Some others are legit hedonists (maybe).
    This is *not* the norm. The norm is that people… men AND women… tend to *want* commitment. If they get the itch to stray, it isn’t because of some “primal poly drive” or other pseudo science nonsense. How do we know? Because once they do leave, their next relationships tend to be more successful. Suddenly, the “need to sow their oats!” is gone. AMAZING!
    STOP conflating your alt-lifestyle ethos with *traditional relationship issues*. The “answer” is NOT for everyone to switch to YOUR fetish.
    The *answer* for MOST is to be OPEN and HONEST and not *crap all over* the person they committed to. That goes for women AND men as well. Your spouse doesnt “owe you” the “right” to bang whoever you want while they stay married to you. It isn’t “on them” to become “enlightened”. And ironically, *most* would go *crazy* if their spouse did the same, or maybe had even MORE fun. VERY few are truly open to things like poly, or *true* swinging, where *both* spouses have LOTS of action. Even fewer are into asymmetry where ONE spouse stays chaste while the other goes WILD. So stop promoting a niche agenda on a *mainstream therapy site*

  • godfreyknows

    September 13th, 2016 at 6:12 AM

    This loss of self-control is indicative of a broader development within our society. Just look at how parents have suddenly decided its oppressive and tyrannical to discipline kids and keep them in the straight and narrow. Indulgence is the motto of the age. No one dares restrict anyone’s happiness;even though its gona be ruinous in the long run.
    Its the same thing happening with the current Fat Acceptance movement among women.”Leave us to our indulgences”. And society is indeed leaving them to their devices. But degradation is progressive and like a black hole its always hungry for more. So after fat is accepted what’s the next step down degeneracy? “Ban fit trim models from TV”. That’s the new call of the fat women.the bar goes even lower. And so the world becomes dimmer and a little worse off.
    And then there is open marriages…in the name of love allow a woman to freely indulge,if you dare disagree then you don’t know how to love! Like really now? Have we sunk that low as a species? Is love that wide and all-encompassing?
    I don’t care what you do or enjoy. Just don’t call it love and don’t call that marriage caring. And don’t call me hateful coz I believe what you also believed when you married your wife: that marriage is only for two.
    What you need to know is that always there would be people in society who would endeavour to keep the race in the straight and narrow. We can’t all endorse potentially risky tendencies or the species will go to sh*t.
    And marriage isn’t a christian religion thing;coz every race,tribe and civilisation had a particular set of marriage standards that oddly enough didn’t fall too far away from the judeo-christian set up. Humanity is moral. Don’t pull down fences established for millennia.restrictions are for our good as a race and breaking down barriers that have brought us this far will have disastrous consequences.
    Consider me and those who express sentiments like mine as society’s collective conscience;since its so clear society is determined to live no better than animals.we are the thorn at your neck and we won’t keep quiet. Because we love you and we really care.

    Reply

  • Samuel C

    September 22nd, 2016 at 8:58 AM

    Next saturday my wife and I are going to a party with a bunch of other fun people. She’s going to get railed by multiple men, including myself, and kiss and lick multiple women all over their bodies. Everyone will be protected, don’t get in a huff. I’ll have a go at several fine ladies, all while she watches and plays with them…..if she can take her attention off whoever is trying to get at her. On Monday morning, we’ll wake up and go to work like we always do and nobody would ever imagine that we’re a wild and kinky couple at our boring day jobs…..but we’ll feel refreshed in our marriage and in our love for each other, knowing that we are secure enough to enjoy this fun and that our marriage is much deeper than just sex.

    Reply

  • Dan

    September 23rd, 2016 at 2:26 AM

    She is planning to cheat on you my friend. The minute she suggested it, that should have been a red flag right there. She is just hoping that you approve so that she doesn’t have to feel guilty about her sexual exploits.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    September 23rd, 2016 at 4:06 PM

    Dan, just to clear, here, do tell us all exactly what unshakable evidence do you have about whoever your vague remark is supposed to be aimed at you have to base this on, and then with that undeniable truth, tell us why you know it is the factual truth your statement clearly claims it to be . . .

    However, if there is no clear evidence for your statement, why leave here for hurting people with difficult life situations already to read into their own sense of instability this unfactual, and clearly speculative gibberish?

    This, if unfounded speculation, is very similar to another late commenter, whose sarcastic statements bear no honest, caring help for anyone, including himself.

    Reply

  • tunamelt

    September 25th, 2016 at 1:56 AM

    Why don’t you… be an adult and discuss how you feel with your wife? Also, I noticed in your post, there’s a lot of talk about what YOU want, but have you even considered what she wants and why she wants it? No. Talk to her about it what she wants, and all will be revealed.
    People have different feelings and want different things. It’s just brain chemistry, and there is absolutely no reason to be offended or upset. There is nothing to be afraid of, and nothing to lose. Grow a pair, cuddle up, and talk about it. Don’t get upset, don’t humiliate her. Make a list of pros and cons for each of your options, and work it out together.

    Also, all of the people suggesting divorce are, frankly, stupid. I’m convinced they’re all lawyers who just want to bag your money. Work your s*** out with you partner. Be an adult. Own your marriage.

    Reply

  • Samuel

    September 25th, 2016 at 11:13 AM

    What tunamelt just said! How many marriages have broke up over petty differences like how often and in what ways you have sex? Too many to count. Figure out what you both need and work it out.

    Reply

  • NADER10

    October 8th, 2016 at 9:25 AM

    If you start an open marriage life you will ruin your nice moments with your wife or you will love her more,why i am saying this,you will compare,you will feel different with some one who is new to you.No need to go into such unsafe issue

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    October 8th, 2016 at 3:22 PM

    NADER10 – Is it possible that this comment about how you assume others will react to open marriage is simply you projecting your own fears and assumption on others?

    Reply

  • NADER10

    October 10th, 2016 at 6:22 AM

    I CAN NOT DENY THAT MY COMMENT ON OPEN MARRIAGE IS MY PERSONAL VIEW ON THE SUBJECT,THIS COMES FROM THE NATURE OF THE PART OF THE WORLD THAT I LIVE IN.HOWEVER I AM SORRY IF THIS HURTS ANY PERSON/S

  • Ryan M.

    October 8th, 2016 at 6:29 PM

    Im curious whatever became of yall did yall work it out did she cheat?

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    October 10th, 2016 at 9:55 AM

    NADER10 – Thanks. Maybe I was a bit strong, too. The thing is here, accepting that all others have individual concepts of sexual relationship based on life experiences. Each of us also answers to those who are significant to us, forming our sexual boundaries and concepts in addition to other influences.

    Reading the many interesting experiences here is a refreshing slice of real life giving a little insight into some of the diversity people we meet all day have, but do not share in casual contact with those they do not know and enjoy intimate relation with.

    This place is one of the best and fairest sexual relationship discussions I know of. Good to have your input, NADER10:-)

    Reply

  • Johnny1

    November 6th, 2016 at 3:38 PM

    My live-in girlfriend of 10 yrs, have been swinging off and on for about 8 yrs. Explored mfm’s, hotwifing, and cuckolding,etc……her fave guy of all time (besides me) recently got married and we decided to not continue with him since his now-wife-girlfriend, didn’t know about us,etc…..now my girl is having 2nd thoughts and wants to continue having sex with him……kinda caught me off guard……any comments appreciated.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    November 6th, 2016 at 10:03 PM

    This isn’t so much commenting about your situation as it is about any relationship where “f*cking” around is a substitute for rewarding, sexual and all other body aspects satisfying *real* sexual relationship is desired but all consequences considered to their root cause, affect and effect on each of those involved.

    I am privileged to be an active member of a swinger social site with members on every continent and in hundreds of cities islands and the native sexual cultures. I so wish the broken religious and political social order forced on Americans were not so, but it is, so we live broken sex relation companionships on every side.

    There is a simple and easy to comprehend answer. . . selfless love, that love than has specific guidelines and boundaries that respect to the fullest each other being one *f*cks*. The expression, “f*ck,” is a fitting one, I believe, for this comment, as it is a term for good intercourse, but not specifically good, satisfying lifetime companionship sexual relationship(s). I love *f*cking*, and simply have way too little for these past 6 years of only 5 partial intercourse attempts with me by a severely sexually and street drug damaged grandmother. I desire to sexually release her demons; she cannot see she has any that she does not control. I believe this case is partially applicable to your situation, given the woman that you *f*ck* so lightly regarding your own sexual integrity has clear indications of her sexual thoughts being controlled by a ‘presence’ that she is blind to and about. If she had honored you, there would be no need to post your comment, as she would have already resolved the entire issue with herself, you and her former *f*ckbuddy*, who is anything but her friend.

    Friends are transparent and preferring their friend to their own desires and addictions. There is little other definition for “friend.”

    Frankly, for me, it’s hard to see here that you are in anywise a friend to yourself. But then, you share far too few details to make any but a passing remark to that. Are you your own best friend in the sense where others you include in your inner, significant core are actually dedicated to your best interests? Apparently not, as this “Girl friend” uses you as her carrier for her “between” *f*ck* periods, disregarding her “friendship” responsibilities to you. We could go far deeper in that direction!

    A dear, sexuall wounded lady who just joined the swinger site saw my profile and politely request me, “If you want another friend,” to send her a friend request. I shared this site with her for her to begin to understand that us people in the jealous worlds of marriage have severe issues with the one we want to possess in sexual senses, but who is and has sexual issues, desires, prior sexual interests not revealed in courtship, and experiences sexual interest adjustment during marital life. She states up front she is married, but he is not included in her profile. As I accepted her as a dear, intimate friend for the obvious, she has indeed discovered the deeper sexual knowledge that has been my pleasure to learn. We are sexually intimate in all the ways there are, except honesty of her own desires to herself. Is this pretty close to where the lady you shack up with is, and, where you are, too?
    I know, Johnny1. I’m blunt, but I woke up to my own self-destruction sexual blindspots, AFTER I ruined my 27 year family. Tell me about hurting.

    In the very last word, to finally love yourself, selflessly love your lady friend and sexual *f*ck buddy* as you love yourself in this way, with specific, clear boundaries she with you create and know and share transparently when you even get close to crossing them. Its simply called . . .
    Self and others’ RESPECT.

    Reply

  • Steve

    November 15th, 2016 at 9:08 PM

    Getting cuckolded is not a bad thing at all – there are many men who like it and actively try to convince their wives to cuckold them. At my blog, I openly talk about my cuckold life. It’s good!

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    November 16th, 2016 at 9:12 AM

    Steve, where do we find your blog?

    Reply

  • Don

    November 21st, 2016 at 4:04 PM

    After ten years of marriage my wife came to me and asked how I would feel about swinging. She has a friend that tried it and they loved it. I was fully shocked and didn’t know what to say but decided to give it a try. We met with her friend and her husband who we had known for years, I had no idea they where into that sort of thing. We had a few drinks and went to their place. His wife was very attractive and I was getting turned on by the thought of having sex with her until my wife said for the first time she just wanted me to watch. I thought what the hell? My wife and her began to get it on and then her husband joined in. My wife just went crazy with the both of them and when they where done she came to me and pulled my pants down and got on top. By that time I was so turned on I came almost immediataly. Afterwards they all had a few more drinks and started up again. Still I was not allowed to touch the other woman. We left around three in the morning and went home. I asked when and if I would be allowed to have sex with her friend and she said never, her husband would not allow it!
    Very dissapointed I said well why didn’t you tell me that before? All she could say was that she knew I would not agree to it and she really wanted a threesome with her friend and her husband. After a bit more she admitted it was not the first time she had sex with her friend but never with the husband. She said there was another couple she would like to try so next weekend we met with them. The husband was very attractive but the wife was way overweight and not at all attractive. I was not even interested in having sex with her but somehow managed it. All the time my wife was going at him like he was the worlds hottest guy. After we went home she asked how I liked it and I told her the truth, it was disgusting to me to have sex with that woman. And she never touched her telling me the woman was not bi at all.
    I told her from then on we both had to be attracted to the couple. We did meet a couple where I found the wife extremely attractive and enjoyed the night a lot. Her husband was in my opinion a very hot guy but afterwards my wife told me she did not like seeing me having sex with his wife. I know it was only because she felt threatened by how attractive she was and that I enjoyed her so much and I know she enjoyed me.
    I never felt threatened by the other husbands but she simply could not handle seeing me with attractive women. Then I found out she had been screwing some single guys on the side. I confronted her and she said she thought it would be OK since we where now “swingers” More and more came out and I found out she had been doing this for a lot longer than she admitted.
    So, when your wife comes and tells you she wants to have an open marriage or wants to swing it probably means she has been doing it already. Mine seemed to know her way around it very well. Looking back I realize all those nights when she came home late from work looking a bit worked over it was from some of her affairs.
    I feel completely betrayed and cheated on. I also wonder how many people where laughing behind my back all this time?

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    November 22nd, 2016 at 5:14 AM

    Hi Don. You know, to me you are one amazing hubby. That you sincerely care about your wife’s sexual ell being with this gentle “Let her follow her own sexual intuition and I’ll just play along as her faithful, caring spouse, no matter if my feelings are screaming “UNFAIR!” you keep on in this commitment to your home.

    Dear brother, for whatever reason, your wife and you are missing the boat in honesty and integrity for all your relationship needs for your home. If you have children involved, they will figure out if not already so, that this marriage business is not for anyone with honesty and integrity of heart, body and soul. With your great desire to be the stable rock of your family, it’s up to you now to find the cause of your wife’s departure from your safe home. She is wide open to infecting you with STDs, and even your children if she brings some forms of sexual disease into your house.

    You need some savvy and mature marital guidance for dealing with this. Someway this untenable breakdown of sexual trust and communication needs to be opened up and each factor examined and repaired as possible.

    Do listen to Michele Weiner-Davis on The sex-starved marriage | Michele Weiner-Davis | TEDxCU on YouTube. Michele watched in horror as her marriage disintegrated, but she is a strong, determined soul, and with heaps of training gained by her reaching out, like you do here, Michele gained the required savvy to right her marriage to grow strong and committed.

    Her books and counsel are not clinical, but actual. Her savvy, clear guidance is the best I’ve discovered.

    Reply

  • Lucasred

    November 22nd, 2016 at 5:30 PM

    Don: You Were betrayed and cheated on. She is Still betraying you and cheating on you. She gives you limited information and very limited access to other women because she was tired of hiding it or because she feared you were suspicious.
    I’m sorry for your situation. You need a better partner.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    November 23rd, 2016 at 9:26 AM

    Lucas, he already loves his best possible lover, friend and sexual care giver. Please, enough already with thankless “solutions” that only cause worse suffering . . . .

  • Samuel C

    November 21st, 2016 at 5:52 PM

    Don…. I’m sorry for your experience. That sucks that your wife cheated on you. As you stated though, she was cheating on you long before she asked you to swing with her. That wasn’t fair, but you can’t say this was a swinging problem. I know 100’s of couples that swing and cheating is no more common in their relationships than in any relationships. People cheat sometimes. She tried to make it OK after the fact by swinging and then didn’t even handle that well.

    Also, swinging and open relationships are different for many reasons and on many levels.

    Reply

  • Ryan m.

    November 24th, 2016 at 12:00 AM

    I still wanna know what happend with open ended did they work it out

    Reply

  • Mark

    November 29th, 2016 at 1:48 PM

    My wife has a relationship with a man married to another. She is obsessed with performing fellatio something I still enjoy but with age, prostate cancer & diabetes is less than satisfactory for her. I can only achieve a partial erection although I still climax. Supposedly his wife (I have not met her) detests the act so is more than happy to let my wife fulfill her fantasy on a regular bases with him. It has been happening for a month now occurring 2 or 3 times a week. Some days I am fine with it but others I start thinking about her with him & I go up the wall.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    November 29th, 2016 at 4:03 PM

    Mark, Life and the ways our expectations and perceptions of significant others seem to slap us down hard seems unfair, until we dig into our own relationship disconnects for those who we fail to provide what they desire from their expectations and perceptions of us. (Smile)

    We have fascinating Life shaping elements that we cannot foresee, understand, nor change, nor, in most people, choose to ignore or resist.

    This dear physician makes assertions about his disease and healing causes, effects and remedies that may at first read appear whacky, but overall this man’s observations and assessments and remedies are hard to improve on because he relies on our potent natural nutrition and natural bio-life metabolisms, including emotional, sensual, mental, spiritual and sensual elements to bring our Being into balanced wellness.

    I read your statement and thought immediately of a dear lady I love dearly, With her husband’s sudden failure to share intercourse with her, she turned to perform oral sex without need for intercourse to swallow our semen, which temporarily quells her body’s extreme discomfort for less than a day, and less and less time intervals.

    Many things cause us to desire what we do, and obviously you are at least somewhat cognisant of this from your appreciation of your dear wife’s craving. The physician I mention has the following webpage devoted to what may be partially responsible for her desire to perform oral, and I would fairly well assume her craving for semen.

    drlwilson.com/articles/SEXUAL%20CRAVING.htm

    In a realated sense that is being researched deeper, listen as these people and the one lady author present the very real ways our Being is shaped by the forming of who we are in mothers body environment . . .

    As a warm up to this topic, listen to Mary Roach reveal how our physical being responds to stimulation. Pay attention to the reality that us boys masturbate at our 15th week, with all the visual effects of orgasm followed by our restfulness.

    By far the best presentation I’ve found on this is given, again at the TED’s Talks . . .
    Annie Murphy Paul (author of “Origins: How the Nine Months Before Birth Shape the Rest of Our Lives.”)
    Annie authored a tear-jerker about her real mothering, and more, her research into the facts of our Being matrix of desires and oddities. You, me, your dear wife are the result of this origin and with the knowledge about body craving of things, including semen, and the balance of nutrition, including vitamins, minerals, enzymes and those other nutrients of mental and emotional nature, work together for our living in harmony with others, especially significant people.

    amazon.com/gp/product/0743296621/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
    youtube.com/watch?v=vgvfvdFFrb4

    Healing our Being is the whole Being that experiences dis-ease. Listen , , ,
    Deep Healing Space
    youtube.com/user/Interbalance1

    The one way for your relationship to heal is going to be what you and your wife, together, is to share the answer(s) to this question: Do I really want to do my best to please you and reduce all discomfort I cause to you? Once at least one of you discover the way to make this quest appealing to the other, you may well be on your way to the rediscovery of what matters to you both. To this end, listen to one of the best intimate relationship enthusiasts I know . . .

    The sex-starved marriage | Michele Weiner-Davis | TEDxCU
    youtube.com/watch?v=Ep2MAx95m20

    How To Avoid A Sex-Starved Marriage – with Michele Weiner-Davis
    youtube.com/watch?v=ZFPajbFhSOc

    In it all, Keep smiling . . .

    Reply

  • GAY SPOON

    November 30th, 2016 at 10:06 AM

    SHE SHOULD HONOR HER VOWS.YOU ARE NOT LESS OF A MAN CAUSE THERE ARE ISSUES. THERE IS A SAYING NO MAN CAN SERVE TWO MASTERS.I HOPE YOU CAN WORK THIS OUT.IT SOUNDS LIKE SHE IS IN A OPEN RELATIONSHIP.

    Reply

  • Mark

    November 30th, 2016 at 10:54 AM

    Thank You. What you write does make sense as Linda seems to be craving more & more of the same it now being a almost daily thing & has included a couple of his friends. She insists it is strictly physical & something she needs with no plans of stopping. With the inclusion of others it is fast becoming common knowledge to friends & family including our grown daughters & our son.

    Reply

  • Samuel C

    November 30th, 2016 at 2:58 PM

    Bro….if you don’t want her to do that, it’s your marriage, too. Tell her to stop.
    And there is absolutely zero reasons for kids to know about their parents sex lives, at any age. I’m 38 and I don’t know anything about my parents sex life, and I don’t want to. My kids don’t know anything about mine. This is simple boundary stuff that has nothing to do with open relationships, or swinging, or marriage, at all.

    As far as your medical problems and your marriage, my wife and I have talked about this numerous times. If I could give her sex any longer, or she couldn’t give me sex any longer, we definitely wouldn’t ask the other person to be celibate for life, even if it caused uncomfortable emotions. I’m sure you are experiencing some of those, and that’s tough. But that doesn’t mean she should have to go without sexual touch for the rest of her life because it makes you uncomfortable, or that she is capable of doing that. I could not do that, I know, with my current level of sex drive. It just would never work, and my wife would never ask it to work if she couldn’t have sex with me. That doesn’t mean I don’t love her or that I love her less. Sex for most people is not a whole lot different than the drive to eat, it’s a hunger, and you can ignore it for a while, but you can’t ignore it forever. Your life though, you can live it any way you like. You can ask her not to do it, she can make a decision from there.

    Reply

  • Mark

    December 1st, 2016 at 8:28 AM

    I will not nor could I forbid her to do what she desires. It’s not a matter of that it’s my acceptance of the situation as it exists. Most days it is fine but some times it is difficult, but that is life.
    PS Our daughter is in a open marriage of 10 years (The apple does not fall far from the tree evidently) since wed so she has no problem with her mom. Our son lives far away but learned of this through his sister who is emotionally close to him. I doubt he would ever discuss his feelings about this with me. It is helpful just to write talk about this & I do see a therapist on a monthly bases.

    Reply

  • apcymri

    December 2nd, 2016 at 6:57 AM

    You should let her have an open relationship with you. Divorced is pretty darn open. Face facts, she no longer wants to be with you. Move on.

    Reply

  • Cally

    December 24th, 2016 at 4:02 AM

    Last night My sister and her hjusband landed for Christmas here at high range, They also bought my friend who’s husband died last year of complications of long term cancer. he was her third husband since graduating in the same class as my husband in high school. the first that died. His ashes are sealed in the rock across the ridge. But My mother and son went up to bed and my sister was as usual pouring the wine when the subject that seems to be on top of the entire familiy’s mind came up finally my friend was the one that introduced me to dancing in topless clubs for six years. My sister whosbnever done any thing like that asked e why I did it . The only thing I could say was that my husband was not acting in the way that was wanted. we had hoped within a five year time after coming home from the navy he was going to be complacent. Just let things go in the community. and follow the leads of the people there> I said did she remember when I showed up at mothers in Norfolk in tears for two years. I said it was after 1994 that I started in the papers mail room and I worked with my friend, when one night we had a very bad storm that took down power for the next two days, She suggesest that since we weren’t going to work Why didn’t me and several other women go to the next City west and she would show us how to get extra money if we wanted, We got to a club that had amature night on the sign outside for topless and nearly nude dancing There were other women there but the five of us walked in and we did not pay for the first drink that evening, MY friend was a Nordic blond with a size 38 chest and her figure was a true 38 22 36 figure and she stood just shy of six feet. I thought that I could never equal her with my five foot 4, 34 20 34 figure I had been told by past boyfriends that the only redeeming feature was my legs. I was beginning to think with my husbands ever increasing resentments over no sex or time off and the nearly weekly fights to just keep going to work under a court order to work all hours offered I just kept telling him that fighting the order would just bring other problems to him. one day everyone would get tired of hearing he was being abused and let him off it just to shut him up about no time off and that’s when our marriage could start. Just be patient. But that evening with my friends at the club I was feeling pretty down that my husband left that day with a friend of ours the week before was stoped from taking us to a stones convert on the two days we had off in Milwalkie. He Had broken the friends back in the parking lot refusing to take another shift so he could take us. In deferance to his own sleep time. It had pretty much been a week of everyone crying at me about how mean my husband was when the guy chased him down after a sixteen hour day and was screaming he was going to work another sixteen hours. My husband who picked up steel 200 pound bars to feed is machines had simply said let him pass and when the other man would not he slammed him back first around a light pole Got in his car and left letting everyone else deal with the man he just broke He Passed through the living room on his way to a shower and his mat telling us that our ride was not coming.
    His father informed me of what he had done. I had spent the last week saying why did he have such an objection to people laying their hands on him just to get him to listen and all he said was he would not suufer any one to have hand said on them to force them into slaver as he was. I think that was the first time I tried explaining that if just one year he simply cooperated then everone would get off his back, Just one of the trie year vacations to Europe he stayed home with some dignity he would go the next time.
    I was at that club and being paid attension to, Not having a man so angry at me about what he was not getting in his life and our marriage that I found myself down to my lace panties and dancing with over 2000 being shoved in the waist band and for some reason felt some appreciation.

    I danced until that horrible night In 2001. My ankle after he brok it kicking the front door in has never been able to work that way again. My friend That iintroduced me to dancing was also on my husbands side saying if he was not married to me she would take him and have her way with him for a week and then tell everyone what we could do with ourselves.
    She’s up here at high range now and still tried seduction right in front of me. Then she said why should I care I never wanted him so why not let him.

    It was not I never wanted him, I was expected to control him. The only thing I had to offer was myself for that. Its nearly 4 years ago now that he came back from Rehab. He did not wait to let me offer something in sex for our life after 31 yeaers, He took what he felt was stolen from me on the living room floor with me trying to beg and plead for just a talk with everyone in 4 more hours. . I was 48 he was 56. and he came home with only one thought, our blackmail was done. He was going to have his way from then on. I found myself pregnant just over three months latter and he’s still pounding us into the dirt over his rights. not willing to let any one have a say.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    December 24th, 2016 at 9:39 PM

    Hi, Cally! Lots of pain. If it helps, let your self rest and go into total mental relaxation somewhere safe. Not with anyone where you feel any anxiety.

    The first thing is to prepare yourself to be calm and restful. Then these jumbled thoughts can begin to make sense to you and others who care. Do find rest.

    Reply

  • maji

    January 9th, 2017 at 1:47 AM

    if she wants (sex by others) and she is ok for that it is better you let her do what she wants

    Reply

  • Mark

    January 9th, 2017 at 10:12 AM

    She firmly believes that ingestion of male sperm is a healthy exchange. The man gets pleasure & she gets the benefits of what she says are healthy intake both physical & metal health. Who am I to disagree?

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    January 9th, 2017 at 11:24 AM

    I have two very dear lady friends whose love of and deep;y satisfying benefits from daily and more often ingestion of multiple men’s “jism” gives each her best senses of health and vitality. One is a 50+ school teacher and no slouch when it cums to knowing her way around us boys sexual needs and interests. Married, she loves the sexual interplay with others. I’ve asked her to find reconciliation with her hubby so she can again enjoy his jism in her mouth and vagina. She is at risk in her present quest. Sumthing everyone need be concerned with these days.

    Reply

  • mark

    November 22nd, 2017 at 12:04 PM

    It has been a year now with her number 1 SB introducing her to 17 others most of who are now regulars. Not my perfect situation but far more acceptable now than a year ago. She is very satisfied with her life.

    Reply

  • Samuel C

    January 9th, 2017 at 10:55 AM

    You’re her husband, that’s who you are. I have a different arrangement wiht my wife than most, but that doesn’t ever mean I get no say in our relationship.

    Reply

  • Calli

    June 3rd, 2017 at 11:04 AM

    I admit I am Biased, My husband is to in a less constructive way, I felt that having the offer of an open marriage would get him to calm down, have his own flings and not do any more harm in the seeking of his rights, A makeup for my infedelities if you will. Mostly after his fathers death five weeks ago all we want is not to have this angry person in everyones face daring them to make him so he would dismantle them for telling him he was not going to be allowed his rights. I just stand back crying at every time somebody tries to interfere with him.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    January 9th, 2017 at 4:08 PM

    Samuel C, addressing comments helps us to know what you refer to.

    Thanks

    Reply

  • The Real Truth

    January 15th, 2017 at 1:54 PM

    First of all which open marriages are wrong in the first place. Second of all anyone out there that would consider an open marriage are very mentally sick to begin with since the divorce rate is high enough as it is.

    Reply

  • NADER

    January 17th, 2017 at 6:07 AM

    I WAS ALWAYS ENJOYING THE BEST MOMENTS OF SEX WHILE I WAS SHARING MY FEELINGS AND MY DREAMS WITH MORE THAN ONE PERSON.MY WIFE AND A FRIEND.THEY GAVE ME THE GREAT RELAXING LOVE

    Reply

  • maji

    January 17th, 2017 at 12:17 PM

    I WAS ALWAYS ENJOYING THE BEST MOMENTS……

    Reply

  • Samuel C.

    February 6th, 2017 at 1:36 PM

    Quick update. My wife and I are in an open relationship. That has generally been meant to mean we have sex with others, occasionally, but usually when we were both there and without any emotions involved. Swingers, more or less.

    I’ve met a girl though, and I’m genuinely interested in her. My wife and I have a spent a lot of time processing our feelings on this girl and what it means to us and are moving forward. She’s handling it amazingly well, but she is an incredibly mature person emotionally. It’s not easy, but it has brought my wife and I closer together. In an interesting twist…..nobody thinks about what its like for the other person stepping into a relationship with someone who is so deeply emotionally involved with someone else. Not easy, as it turns out. She’s still there, though, and for that I feel blessed. no longer do I have to choose between one amazing person or another and all possiblities in life feel open.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    February 6th, 2017 at 9:38 PM

    Samuel C., Always refresh your heart and thoughts to know your wife is your very best friend. She is the most intimate one you’ll ever know in life. Not only this, when the lusting subsides for others, she will be the one who pulls you through – IF – you refuse to take your heart away from her to give it to the ones your emotions take your attention away from her.

    She will also be the only one who can accurately guide your deepest relationship with other ladies. Trust her in all she says about how you, and her, relate to the others. She will never let you down, simply because she proved herself to be NOT possessive, nor jealous, nor week in her sexual relationship with you.

    Be ever so mindful that first you trust her, THEN yourself, THEN your newest lover. All the best, dear husband!

    Reply

  • NADER

    February 10th, 2017 at 6:54 AM

    ANY WAY YOU LOOK AT IT,YOU WILL LOVE IT,THE SCENE OF SOMEONE YOU LOVE WHILE HE/SHE IS INVOLVED IN SEX ACTION WITH ANOTHER PARTNER IS SO NICE AND HOT,IT GIVES YOU MORE PLEASURE AND MORE EXCITEMENT TO JOIN AND SHARE

    Reply

  • Susan

    March 4th, 2017 at 9:46 AM

    I found this site doing some research to help me understand the revelation my husband made to me this week. He has been texting/talking to a few women for quite a few months, this I discovered when his behavior became more secretive and I checked his phone. I know, I shouldn’t have but I did. so here I am. One of the biggest blows to me comes by way of having recently (within the last year) completed treatment for breast cancer including double mastectomy with reconstruction surgery so I have breasts, nice ones minus the nipples. To say I have struggled with this is an understatement. We’ve struggled to get our sex life back on track but he has seemed to have lost any desire to have sex with me. it’s been very hurtful to me emotionally as that was something I so cherished, the incredible connection that was always there before the cancer. I am stuck between wanting to just let him go, let him have all the women he wants without me. He has said he still wants to be married as he loves me but wants to experience others and wants me to as well on my own. Well, I’m not sure if I can or even want to. I’ve never been interested in having sex with someone else, he’s always been more than enough for me. We had a very good sex life prior to the cancer. I don’t know how to deal with this and even if I were to agree to do this open thing, he already has people he has built a “relationship” with and I would have to find someone who would be willing to want to have sex with someone who is less than whole physically. I am not sure I am willing to risk being rejected that way. We haven’t discussed what happens if I decide I want no part of this arrangement. I would imagine we would just go our separate ways.
    I am not sure about anything anymore. I have constant anxiety attacks over the thought of him being with anyone else while we are married. I have suggested counseling for us, he refuses.
    Sorry if I have rambled

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    March 5th, 2017 at 10:29 AM

    Susan, your thoughts and heart-cry are wonderfully clear, not a rambling word anywhere.

    I’m no “guru” with even a remote answer for your issues. In the end, the answers you seek will be found by staying faithful to your own sense of integrity sexually, sensually, emotionally, and rationally. I’d like to say spiritually, as well.

    We people fall prey to our sense of loss and desires to explore. We also are prone to make promises and vows that are later near impossible to keep due to changing of life. When I opened and confessed to my wife of 25 years my one time sex with another lady five years before, due to the very unwise people my dear wife turned to for counsel, she decided that our children and our family were not worth her sense of my being her husband and our lot changing due to extenuation issues that were severely hurting us all. I needed her more at that time than all our 27 years together, yet she failed where I had set the failure in motion.

    I expected more from my wife than she was capable of giving. In real ways, I had gone behind her back in faithless acts of sexual pursuits that by all rights I was under lifetime vow to seek her support, love and counsel to deal with so our family would stay together. There cannot be any justification for my acts and thoughts.

    Yet, in our broken social religious and political orders we have either zero back up for dealing with these normal sexual traumas or more often than not, strong opposition to families resolving their sexual issues together for family ties and strength – we have allowed our society to become self-focused, opposed to family-good focused.

    So far as my thoughts you are asking the best questions, Susan. Your hubby is not.

    Can you focus on guiding his goals to the home and family that remains strong in the worst of times, rather than see the near-sighted self-gratification his sexual desires are driving his mind to self-talk himself into doing behind his best interests?

    Swinging is a good life for those lovers who first confide 110% of all their deepest sexual secrets in each other, then fully mutually agree that sex encounters with trustworthy others is a definite good factor for each other’s interests in the sexual and emotional desires of the other. Watching one’s spouse share the good intercourse shared with the spouse is very gratifying ONLY when there is selfless sexual desires for the other spouse’s sexual experiences, and then all the misgivings still tend to creep into the couple’s relationship, requiring constant full sharing and mutual monitoring. Sex is awesome, but so powerful we easily fall prey to the severe damage that it causes us when it is not fully controlled by all engaging in it together.

    In contrast, my mother remained fully faithful to my father for the 24 years she survived him. However sexually deficient she may have felt, she never relented in her faithfulness to her family and home.

    Susan, take heart, dear. Remain faithful to your intuition of Right. Your heart will change in a flash with all its emotions, so see them as what they are, only feelings that pass. A dear man who had sex with hundreds of women but was taken by one who ten years into their unwed life together left him and while she remained faithful he took up with ladies where he’d left off for two years, opened his eyes to the virtue of single-minded sexual relationship told me that his sense of integrity began during that two year time when he learned to love himself selflessly as we all are loved by our Creator. Then he was presented with the concept that he would best love his faithful lover and friend with the same selfless loving her. When he climbed out of his self-gratifying pit, his entire life reversed and his love of her made her the most cherished sensual woman she could imagine and she shared sexual satisfying intercourse with him several times near every day. They are in their mid-sixties.

    It’s all a matter of focus on the best interests of the family. More I cannot say. all the best, Susan.

    Reply

  • Susan

    March 7th, 2017 at 3:15 PM

    Claude,
    Thank you for your kind words of encouragement. It is difficult to separate my heart from my head at times. I feel it would cheapen me somehow to take part in this lifestyle with him. It isn’t for me, I know it’s not. I don’t share well. I wish I could get him to see how much he would be giving up if it is determined I will not tolerate him seeing others. Time will tell.
    Thank you again.

  • ClaudeA

    March 7th, 2017 at 10:09 PM

    Susan, believe it or just thake my word for it, I’ve been active with two swinger groups. I’m a nudist and sexually conservative so far as sharing sex as a sport without due lifetime companionship commitment to a family first as the children are the most vital members and require due consideration.

    The best sexual integrity I’ve seen are with men and ladies whose dedicated sexual relationships are with lifetime lovers and no others. Not serial “monogamy,” as the crazy world of divorce and remarriage tries to make it “normal.” but people committed to each other through everything. may i encourage you to seek ladies who are members of these dedicated family groups for their savvy support and counsel for maintaining marriage integrity? It may be a bit difficult to find them in all the casual sex swingers, but they are the gems, the husbands, too. It’s not a matter of changing who you are. It is a matter of communicating who you are with your husband in the meaningful relationship where his own sexual misgivings are allowed freedom to be free to compare with his relationship with you.

    All of us change sexually over time. Our desires, questions, unanswered interests, and the experiences we feel are needed to discover the real individual we are causes our significant other(s) to experience perception trauma when their expectations are challenged. Ours too, if the truth is important to us.

    You need safe space to adjust to the husband changes and so does he need room for your perceptions and expectations to guide his choices. My dear children’s mother turned to staunch feminists whose obvious bent is to break up families at the main expense of children. Rather than their apparent support for ladies’ emotional well being, may I suggest seeking out older married ladies who’ve experienced marital rifts and through sheer resolve maintained their marriage til the family healed? This is why I suggest ladies within swinger groups as they are usually more than savvy enough to weather us boys’ crazy sexual desires . . . .

    Reply

  • LanaH102

    June 2nd, 2017 at 3:36 AM

    A balanced view on this matter, especially with a person such as Claudia is like peace in the Middle East. It’s just never going to happen. People living such a lifestyle (albeit good or not) will always gravitate to such forums and sites with the bias of success in alternative lifestyles. Why? Because the average person who had a wife or hubby come home and ask for an open relationship then be punted out the front door will never be known. I, and others see everything in life multidimensional as the where many advocates of open relationships can only promote their one dimensional bias. What that means Claudia is there are two sides to a coin. Do i believe in open relationships? I so seriously could not care one way or another.

    Reply

  • ClaudeA

    June 4th, 2017 at 8:03 PM

    Susan, about a month after we last shared here I met and in about two weeks’ time knew to commit my life to the dearest lady I’ve ever known. As my sex interests are for my lover’s best, most satisfying sexual experience, I shared with her that should ever she feel need to be sexually cared for by a committed friend I am fully supporting her.

    In her turn she over and over emphasizes that her complete sexual satisfaction is fully met in and by her husband – me. I shared the dialogue we’ve shared here, and as she is a bilateral breast removal patient, she and I have experienced at least partially some of the issues that have entered your marriage. As for me lack of body parts – i. E. Breasts – is absolutely no concern whatever regarding sexual relationship for ANY properly respectful husband or wife, and I find nothing missing in my love and companionship with my dearly loved companion, I am certain there is a hidden agenda to your husband’s infidelity.

    As we shared your comments and experiences she remained completely dedicated to encouraging you to remain single-minded to being monogamous in your marital union. She did indicate that if the same situation came to us she would literally ‘hammer’ me to get me back on track as her sole lover and my only sex partner, but should I still go astray then she would feel more free to find, or at least be open to find another committed life companion, and leave me in my own dust.

    Susan, I fully concur with her, and you – stay convinced of your sexual integrity, and rest assured you are lovingly supported.

    Reply

  • Alger

    June 14th, 2017 at 8:44 AM

    I’m desperately wanting to open up our marriage, but my fear is she’ll be devastated. She has nothing much else in the world besides our relationship, no real friends, estranged from her family, no real hobbies, no job, etc. etc. etc. She also has a few health issues that likely would preclude her wanting to bounce around to new lovers.

    Those men who write in to say “My wife wants to open the marriage…” Geez wish I could be so lucky!!!

    We have not had sex regularly in several years, and while our relationship is strong from a “friends” perspective, the physical sparks are long gone after 20+ years. And while our friendship is strong, neither one of us has ever been emotionally that open and truthful with each other about very sensitive things as we should. Both us were raised with very cold, non communicative parents and follow in their tracks.

    I am about to die from my situation. I am 59 and feel my last best years are being wasted. I have had several affairs and while pretty satisfying short term, they are emotionally exhausting, trying to keep them on the secret and sneaking around.

    I am much more a people person than she, not to mention I have physically taken care of my self and she has not. This would affect our “luck” on the sex market, too. I can find someone right away. I think she would struggle. I have to consider that.

    I feel trapped. The net net I will hear from those hear is likely “live with it and be unhappy” or “discuss it and risk losing her.” Problem is, I don’t think I could ever abandon her, out of pity – like I said, she has nothing else in the world. And health problems. Thus I slog along, sneaking around with clandestine affairs.

    Any suggestions?

    Reply

  • Samuel

    June 14th, 2017 at 1:24 PM

    I’m sorry to hear that my friend. Not many will like my answer, but monogamy is not a gift that one partner gives another. It’s actually a huge responsibility that one partner takes on. If you ask for monogamy from your partner, that is an agreement that you will satisfy any and all reasonable sexual requests and needs. If someone can’t or won’t do this but still insists on monogamy, that’s emotional abuse in my book. I can’t see any good reason to talk to her about your past indiscretions, buti would clearly let her know what you expect going forward. And then follow through. You might be surprised but a marriage isn’t supposed to be a death pact. Good luck.

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  • mark

    June 14th, 2017 at 8:51 PM

    As a older guy (10 years older than my wife) I frankly love that my wife has a lover who full fills her needs in the sexual arena. They meet 3 times a week for sex only. It is not a social relationship (never lunch, movie, bar etc) but a strictly sexual one

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  • LanaH102

    June 18th, 2017 at 6:29 PM

    WOW! He certainly keeps her busy. Going by that you rarelyhave sex with her?

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  • LanaH102

    November 6th, 2017 at 12:58 AM

    3 times a week! Yikes indeed. Do you spend much time with her or are you just her financial security blanket?

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  • mark

    June 19th, 2017 at 8:02 AM

    My pleasure is knowing she is happy, satisfied & content!

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  • Peter

    July 3rd, 2017 at 2:37 PM

    That’s real love!

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  • LanaH102

    November 6th, 2017 at 1:00 AM

    By the sounds of it i think he certainly is doing that for her…LOL

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  • Peter M.

    July 28th, 2017 at 11:14 AM

    I’m not going to say my way is the right way but I gave my wife permission because I became aware of my deficiencies. When we married I had no idea that I had suffered a great deal of lung damage, whilst a baby, leaving me unable to build up my stamina. I presumed that I could beef up and make myself “stronger” whenever I decided I needed to. When I found out that my lungs would prevent me from giving her what she wanted then we talked it through and she moved from not wanting to consider it to agreeing after I convinced her that I could accept it. After talking and thinking and ultimately her meeting a man she actually liked a lot we agreed to make it happen. I asked him to sleep with my wife, as a favour to me. He did but he was a disappointment to her. However having shown her that I could accept it she then slept with a neighbour, twice before telling me. I was not very happy but only because she hadn’t kept me informed. Subsequently she had sex with him almost every weekday for the next 10yrs. She told me all the details whilst we made love afterwards. Clearly I could not hope to keep her happy on my own, after all he was much better than I was but he alone wasn’t enough. As she said, she had sex with him, we made love. I just loved the fact that she was happy and fulfilled.

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  • Peter

    July 28th, 2017 at 2:20 PM

    I think that your way is the right way. You love your wife so much that you give her everything she wants. Jealousy is such a selfish emotion.

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  • Peter M

    July 29th, 2017 at 8:18 AM

    The only downside which we have had to ignore, if not overcome, is my humiliation. It’s almost impossible to keep it secret. In our case the neighbour who my wife was sleeping with fell for the old amateur detective trick (“how did you know?” – “I didn’t until now”). Soon lots of people knew and had a lot to say about my cuckold status. If my kids know thankfully they’ve never said anything but all our friends and neighbours took the mick so often that I just had to endure it. For my wifes part she became a sex target for most men from then on, fortunately none of them were too insistent. One thing that did make everything easier is that it transpired that there where 2 other willing cuckolds in the street. Seemed to help in a strange way.

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  • Peter

    July 29th, 2017 at 1:08 PM

    I can imagine that this is difficult for you. When you are sure of yourself, you can withstand the pressure of your social environment. When you show to other people how happy you and your wife are, the smiles will stop after a while. You should contact the other cuckolds in the street and on the internet for some support. When you or your wife can’t cope with the situation, it is better to move to another city, while your wife continues to see the neighbour. Succes!

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  • mark

    July 29th, 2017 at 2:53 PM

    It’s been over a year since Linda began her sexual adventure mostly Fellatio but not exclusively. Frankly now that her behavior is common knowledge and she is up front with who and when she is with them I have become very accepted of her life style. I frankly have virtually no interest in sex & little ability to satisfied her so it is working for us. I no longer wench at the occasional crude joke or cruel remarks I get from male colleagues both socially & in business. We in fact have a better marriage now then ever with lots of time together including dinners, movies, plays, massaging, personal hygiene with each other (Manicures, pedicures, I shave her legs etc) then ever before. It is working for us.

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  • Peter

    July 29th, 2017 at 8:10 PM

    We have passed the stage where humiliation is a big issue. I cannot understand myself. I seem to even enjoy it sometimes. My wifes female friends envy her and tease me, whilst one man in particular is a problem, he’s someone I could deal with if I really needed to. The internet is a source of comfort and support as it’s apparent that my problem is not unique. If it had been up and running when we married I would have been aware of how bad I really was at intercourse, so would my wife. We only realised when her workmates described their sex lives to her. So naturally she wanted the same. Until the internet came to be I thought it was just me.

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  • Peter

    July 30th, 2017 at 2:37 PM

    We seem to be with a lot of Peters on this blog. I’am not the Peter of the previous reply. I have some experience with the hotwife lifestyle and I see several advantages of it: 1. You are more focused on what is really important in a relationship such as love and friendship, 2. You have an open communication without secrets, 3. Your wife has more pleasure and brings that at home, 4. You wife knows that not many men would allow her this lifestyle and therefore will not leave you for another man, 5 You have no more pressed to perform but you will better. A disadvantage is that you will encounter prejudices, when you don’t keep it secret. This might be the new coming-out. You can find supporting websites by googling hotwife or cuckold, especially when you look on Tumblr.

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  • Peter

    July 31st, 2017 at 11:16 AM

    Your summarisation and interpretation of me is uncannily accurate,as I understand myself, except for one thing. I am never going to get better. Loss of lung capacity cannot be overcome. My wife gets angry and frustrated so my solution of allowing her to use other men makes sense. However, I do enjoy it too much. I have to wonder about cause and effect. Did I want to enjoy her experience or did her experiences plus my reality check subliminally make me into a cuckold? I don’t know. I don’t remember having cuckold thoughts before we were married.

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  • Peter

    July 31st, 2017 at 3:01 PM

    By my own exprience and through a lot of research on the internet it has become evident for me that many men have the unconscious wish that their wife has sex with another man and that they become aware of this wish when they see their wife’s sexual desire for other men in non-threatening situations. This stimulates cuckold fantasies and putting these fantasies into reality is addictive. So, it is not so strange that you enjoy her sexual experiences. You help your wife and yourself and that’s good.

  • isis56

    October 26th, 2017 at 10:21 PM

    After getting caught in an affair two time by my husband I have moved back to the east coast after he would not take the offer of an open marriage. I knew that denying him sex and having affairs to control my own needs for sex was wrong but in the last three years I have realized that not forgiving people in your family and life for doing things that hurt is a death of its own. I have even had to hold compression on his neck when two years ago he cut his own throat to die. because I wanted him to just stay behind on the Cancun trip, six months away when somebody hates his life that much he doesn’t feel theres any more hope Its time to try something else We were sitting at the table our son was at my mother’s and the argument about giving me his tickets and boarding pass so I could get the refund and he could do something else rather than make his father and everyone else angry he was again deciding his own way. Again it was an attempt for a peaceful resolution tio what he could have without conflict. He said so again he was going to take the back seat to everyone else and get the conselation prise. I said it was not like that it was he had made so many angry over the last 32 years when he tried to take what he had earned he could not be near them and keep the peace, He said fine he was the antithesis of our life so he would eliminate himself from it and he grabbed a steak knife and drew it across his throat. I could not imagine that By denying him vacations and a sex life for three decades would cause anyone to hate themselves that much or believe as he had said so many times he was a throw away to the society. He saw me leave on those three year vacations since 1987 and would not take a time that was better for many as the best time he should have a vacation or let our life continue in peace> HE could have many time just taken our suggestion for a vacation any of the weeks his contract gave him from the Last day of the Christmas Shutdown to Valentines day and even used his personal time for holiday replacement HE did not have to take the weeks to Europe I did in the summer when everyone else wanted the time. . He could have gone with me to other interesting places and started a good life many years ago if he was not so stubborn. and anti-society. that everything he did eventually was an act of total defiance. By 2009 he was throwing me across rooms and trying to strangle his father to death and refused any overture to a peaceful settlement, even making himself so depressed that he killed his immune system because he was not getting his way.
    I have asked others if this was the way a stable person acted, Refusing to take other ways when they were available instead of demanding the way he wanted and felt he earned. That is again the way it is I have offered to open our marriage for both of us and I even have a friend that wanted him since far before we even met that would spend so much time in bed with him or other pursuits she would be basically his wife and I could have my other friends and the social stability I needed.

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  • Em

    November 3rd, 2017 at 11:16 PM

    I wish I would stumble across this thread earlier, that’s some interesting reading. So… I’m actually a wife wanting an open relationship, just not sure how to start a conversation, although I brought this up as a passing joke a few times with no reply from my husband. Been married for over 10 years, have kids – and feel completely suffocating in this marriage, lonely, and occasionally – cbeen taken for granted (as in: being main caretaker of the kids at home, sacrificing my career because of the kids, my in-laws manipulating my hubby into something they want and my needs being thus pushed back or more problems created for me). Thinking of how I’ll be stuck into this groundhog’s day until my younger kid is old enough for college is quite depressing, and it looks like my husband either has nothing else more to offer to me as his “woman” in the relationship or – does not care about trying. So at this point – if I have a chance to get some more joy, fun, adventure and deep, meaningful conversations while not ruining my daughters’ lives and keeping solid relationship with my husband – hell, I’ll take it!

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  • mark

    November 4th, 2017 at 11:40 AM

    bite the bullet & tell him. when my asked for this I was shocked but not surprised as I knew she was not happy with our limited sex life. It works for us and she is a much better partner with out side sex after a number of years

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  • Em

    November 8th, 2017 at 7:01 PM

    I think I eventually will…

  • Victor

    November 4th, 2017 at 1:46 PM

    If you just want more sexual pleasure then just ask your husband to find another men for a 3 some. But If you want a love relationship with another man while staying married to your husband, that is dangerous.
    My wife and I did a lot of 3 some but it was for sexual pleasure only so we no problem.

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  • Em

    November 8th, 2017 at 7:06 PM

    Thanks for the idea! I can see how my husband would love that.
    My perfect solution though would still be keeping my relationships with other men completely separate from my family. No strangers in our house :)

  • LanaH102

    November 6th, 2017 at 1:07 AM

    What i’m getting from reading this Em is you keep inferring your kids suffocate you and hubby just tops it off. No mother will ever blame their children for their lifes woes so i understand you now having to become defensive. Just ask him. no point doing taking action and coming here blaming your family because you hate your life. Just do it! :)

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  • Em

    November 8th, 2017 at 7:02 PM

    I never blame my children for any of my life choices. I’m not sure what your comment is about.

  • isis56

    November 9th, 2017 at 4:48 PM

    I don’t blame anything on my little boy of 4, I stayed in the marriage after the state told my husband he would have to come up with an ammount that franlkly was more than was expected fpr any auto worker to cover, In 1989 the judge that was deciding our marriage disoluttion told him he would have to come up with an ammount that would Guarantee my care for bi polar up front before he would be allowed to divorce.
    The amount was over 3 million. so he had to keep me under his insurance umbrella. His anger with the court in front of my mother and his parents nearly got him put in jail for contempt when he stood up and did not let the court dismiss him. When the judge asked if he wanted a contempt charge he said go ahead and jail him. He would get fired, not have insurance any longer. so he would not have the same excuss for the state to make him keep me He said he had nothing but contempt for the court and everyone in the hearing. Mostly because the same judge would not remove the order to come to the court and they would decide what vacation at work he would get regardless of seniority. Those of us that were left in that room, where speechless at his response to the court. His father recommended just keeping the court’s thumb on him. until he respected the community we lived in! The court agreed it was a better way to handle my husband, That is until 2000/2001 when on December 23, 1999, he was taken to jail and held, escorted to work every day until the second of January the second 2000. Leaving had been a danger to me and everyone else that had tried to get him to just see reason for working the Millennials instead of getting lesser seniority miss that year’s celebrations wherever they were going.
    We came back to his father’s friend on the Bench being cuffed and charged with public malfeasance in office, Taking bribes and evidence tampering my husband had found out about and lodge an anonymise complaint. He also had the ACLU waiting with a 100 million dollar lawsuit against the county for discrimination by the court. He was insulting about everything we tried the last 15 years, He was so nasty about things he offered a box of dog do to me as the Christmas gift with a letter telling me that was my worth as a wife in his life.. He made swu8re his mother and father felt he was considered nothing better than a slave to advance his fathers social standing in the community, By offering to lket him and his friends deliver a publice whiping in front of everyone in the community with a bbull whip , Hw said this time the sentance would be carried out in public and they bbetter leave him hanging on the wheel bleed out. At the time I did not know what had happened when he was 17. when his father and the same group of people standing there left him tied to a tree with his back laid open to his ribs and spine for not respecting social norm. I did not know how he got the scars on his back until two years ago I thought it was some accident in the Army he did not want to talk about. It was when he came home to Complet High school from the Army in 1972> He had made his father and several others angry he would defy their stations on the school board and take positions they wanted to go to the board members sons. The Photos the Doctor took At The Military hospital his temporary CO had him airlifted to. They showed where they had Tied him to a tree with Zip ties Fifty stitches to each wrist then the pictures of his back over 153 major sutures, combined with staples.
    He also had to have over three units of blood given to him. In 1015 after he had not accepted our idea that he just stay off the cruise in 2015. I tried a compromise with him to talk myself blue to get him on the Hawaii trip next year without complaint or rancor. all he had to do was understand we were not ready for him to be included in the cruise. His refusal to not go in 2014 led to him being held on our porch at gunpoint so we could think without him saying we could drop dead about how to get him off the Cruise. He left the two that were armed in the middle of a dinner laid out with their faces open to the jawbone in the breakfast that had just arrived the first indication he was there was his sister screaming watch out as the cane draons head titainiunm teeth riped into their faces. He then pushed his father back in his chair with the Ice spick on the tip of his canme and hes telling his father that he was done interfereing with his rights and he was going to die to feel each of the 32 second of the last 32 years of his life as he was impaled. This drew Court notice him a family court, That were we learned of the Whipping nearly 41 years past. The Boarding never happened and his father was left in front of our room with his neck broken that night. He objected in a major way that his oldest son would not let me loan a friend that had been on the other trips with us before MRSA developed in my husband’s spine yje price of his fare on the cruise, and he took the money I had planed to loan and made a reservation for the two of us taking my ability to say no to going away. My husband invited himself with me pleading with him not to press his father about it, My husband pressed it to the limits and beyond the day before we were to board. He left his father hurt and angry that he would refuse to just take the first class ticket flight back home and just let us go on the cruise. I was telling him he could choose anything else now he was retired just let my mother care for our two-year-old and go to High range for two weeks< He told me if he was paying for my fare he was also going that time. His father's word was not his. . We had heard other pronouncments like that before once in 2002 when he said on his way to work with three shotguns pointed at him, He looked at me and said froim then on we could consider him like Lucifer, he was going to rule in the hell he created and he hoped we liked it when he took us there, He Stomped the blazes out of a man that christmas eve leaving a party. He was supposed to work and my husband had refused the canvas. He was one holding an unloaded shotgun at my husbands back/ My husband laid him out at the party on the hood of his car/ his legs were broken. as they hung over the front. My husband did it methodically with malice for daring to point a weapon at him. . Hes done this to many that felt it was the only way to secure cooperation from him, we offered direct exchanges of ti,me off for both holidays and vacation time he was due and since it was not what he wanted then he was not going to see anything our way. Christmas day 2015 many of my friends were making the effort to come to the Wyoming home to try and give me something besides the lonely Christmas I was expecting with just my husband and son. After his refusal to take 4000 for an over holiday vacation, just not be home for Christmas and the New Year. I decided that to keep tensions down over the dinner that evening i would give him his first dinner at home that I fixed and new he was going to be there, I fixed the plate and asked him to go out to his workshop and start the heater and eat out there. I got it into his hands before the whole plate was ground into my face with him telling me that it was his home his food he had supplied and his equipment that prepared it. He was not going to be told to come to the back door begging for seconds like aq field hand getting the Massas charity in his house Over thirty people that evening were held under the baqrrel of my husbands 30-30 telling them they were to get out and find their meal elsewhere.
    I remember his father leaving crying that this could have never happened if he would just be nice about how he would treat other people. he said he had treated us with the same consideration we had given him for decades none at all. I cry that we will never again get him to have consideration for other needs. I don't want his brand of rebellion instilled in our son and he won't even think of letting him be taught that for the good of the many sometimes self-worth needs to be forgotten and the community comes first.
    My husband feels that he comes before everyone else now, I know he's in the area and I fear that he's going to appear with police and take our son back west. I don't know of any way without a major fight to keep him here.

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  • LanaH102

    November 9th, 2017 at 11:48 PM

    I knew you would be defensive obviously. Just an outsider reading your post. seems to infer it.

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  • Jon

    November 10th, 2017 at 12:37 PM

    I wouldn’t risk it mate.
    Let me start by admitting I have many fantasies including swinging and hotwifery etc. However fantasies are largely harmless. If one partner is uncomfortable with the idea of their spouse getting sexually involved with others, it should not be done. I have dabbled in the swinging and fetish communities and seen no less than seven marriages destroyed by one partners’ selfishness and neglect for their spouse. One friend of mine is still hurt and upset now despite his wife breaking with him and getting with one of the guys she’d bedded way back in 2013. She was his wife, he’d loved her all his life, yet the psycho b**** dumped him for her own selfish reasons, splitting apart an entire family in the process.

    Maybe there are other ways to get to the root of the problem with her. I don’t recommend doing as she requests, I foresee little but pain and devastation there on that horizon. If it turns out she’s secretly wanting to bed a particular man she’s being selfish. Or is this friend of hers having too much of an influence on her? I don’t like the sound of what she’s proposing within this scenario.

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  • Em

    November 13th, 2017 at 1:52 PM

    It’s interesting to see different sides of the story… I’m of course curious at examples of what can go wrong, and I’ve noticed that often the partner who takes the initiative to discuss “just sleeping” with other people is accused of selfishness. But then why doesn’t he/she -if the idea is rejected by the other spouse – ever get called a “victim ” for not only being stuck in an unfulfilling mariage, but also his/her wishes not being respected by the other spouse? :) If a woman does not get enough TLC from her husband and takes a step to fill this void rather than ruin the entire marriage – why is it emphasized she is selfish? Why is it not emphasized that she is “making a sacrifice ” – whenever she has to live in a groundhog’s day because otherwise it might hurt her husband’s ego?

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  • DR

    February 25th, 2018 at 9:37 PM

    So why don’t you just tell your husband exactly what is eating away at you? You are making the same sacrifice my wife is, and that is admirable. These kinds of sacrifices however, are not currency or license to obtain or introduce an enormous risk to your relationship. Also, if a woman gives up a career the focus of that sacrifice shouldn’t be on her husband, it should be on the benefit to her children. It sounds like you are starving so maybe its time to leave the kids with trusted relatives and have a date night. The wife and I try to do that once a week. We also each have our independent hobbies for creative time after the kids go to bed. Perhaps your husband and you can even find a constructive hobby you both like. Men are not emotionally stupid as society would have you believe. He probably knows you are unhappy on some level (maybe subconsciously) but doesn’t know how to fix it. Making passive aggressive comments is not having a conversation. Neither of you is a “victim” and I wouldn’t go as far to say you are “selfish” at this point especially not knowing the circumstances of your relationship. I think both need quality time for a retreat together however. Perhaps you should suggest to your husband to find a very secluded and warm spot in nature and make love to each other. Totally organic and away from the drudgery of the house. Then try the talk…..

  • Peter

    November 10th, 2017 at 2:28 PM

    Em, it takes a lot of talk to get an healthy open marriage. You made several yokes about it, but you have to discuss this openly. This requires a brave step from you. The fact that your husband didn’t react on your yokes may mean that he is not absolutely against it. When your husband really loves you, he will listen to you, understand your needs and he doesn’t begrudge you some sexual pleasure. Tell him that he is your only lover.

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  • Peter

    November 13th, 2017 at 1:37 PM

    Peter, thank you for open and smart point of view. A lot of things have been happening I our marriage in the past couple of month, so I’ll wait until the dust settles to talk to him. But yes, your right – since I seem to need it most, i gotta start the long conversarltion….

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  • Em

    November 13th, 2017 at 1:55 PM

    Oops, the comment above was supposed to be from me!

  • Amy

    November 16th, 2017 at 6:48 AM

    Em, just be sure to reassure him that you will always belong to him and the others will only be to use temporary., with no emotional attachment. To many men, it would be OK and there would be no jealousy. Your need is just like any other need, hunger, thirsty or sleepy. You will function much better if you are not lacking in the basics. This type of need is so important. Lets hope your guy is as understanding as mine was. Being open has transformed my marriage into a beautiful relationship. I have a date usually about every three weeks and have dated several guys, its so exciting!

  • Callie

    October 13th, 2019 at 2:08 PM

    I should also say that after I had a fling with another man in 2000, I offered to allow him to take a friend he was obviously attracted to bed as the fair Exchange since she was very willing, He could have even taken her to the B and B I had planed for two weeks. Just forgot about the way he had been treated for 15 years, Found some point that forgiving could happen. I was again turned down flat. and he held the whole 29 years over my head about not giving him the marital life he felt he had earned over my head by 2013.

    I could never understand with the options we pointed out he could use in exchange for what he was not getting why he just could not try it our way, even one time would have been enough to demonstrate he could at least try.

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  • Gavin A

    December 5th, 2017 at 10:54 AM

    I asked my wife to consider an open relationship last night. She was not negative; she was quiet for while. We talked it out; it was as hard as I thought it would be. We are both in a thinking it out phase. We have given ourselves one week.

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  • Claude R A

    December 7th, 2017 at 12:34 PM

    Gavin, in her own heart relation with you, as her sexual provider, do you know all her perceptions and sexual needs that she likely trusted you alone to provide her, and you?

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  • bandar p t

    January 18th, 2018 at 8:37 PM

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    Reply

  • misterbill0304

    February 11th, 2018 at 5:51 AM

    I have always considered sex a very intimate act of love. I have not fooled around and absolutely do not want to. Not to be a hypocrite, I have had fantasies based on the appearance of a few other women, but always remained true. Back in our 6th year of marriage, my wife was gone one night, all night. When sh came home at 9 the next morning, she siad seh was at her boss’ houe ,(while his wife was away), and they drank too much and they fell asleep. She insisted “nothing happened”. I went into shock, blotted it out of my mind. After a nmonth or so, we resumed normal sexual relaions. Everything seemed fine but I always was jealous after. Sdly, she dies 1 year ago. I have been seeing a grief therapist. He told me to look at th good side and ignore the incident since it seemed to be a one off. It is not working — I never talked it over with my wife and now I am tortured with the thought that she brought another man to share what I believe is one of the most personal, private and intimate part of marriage, her body, with another man. My counselor tell me the effect is a form of PTSD and in my case, my take years to get over. I feel so betrayed, It may be true that “nothing happened”, but because I never believed it the full effect c ame back at her death and is devastating me, I had thought our sex life was so good and do private. Some 10 years later , she had been promoted and I found she was going to lunch every day with a male co-worker, just the two of them. She ws never with him after work and when I told her I didn’t like it , she told me I was being foolish. Then she betrayed me emotionally and told her coworker about my jealousy. He contacted me to assure me they were openly friends. I am sure that was true. I do not believe anything happened , she was home every evening, but I felt things were starting to shape up the way they had with her boss years ago. I felt like an absolute fool when she shared my feelings with her coworker.Keep with your mate, the sharing of your body with another diminishes true love.

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  • ClaudeA

    February 13th, 2018 at 5:51 PM

    misterbill0304, thank you so much for opening your heart. I’d like to share a brief insight into my sexual experiences with two of my dear wives, and a dear friend who shared her intimate sexual needs with me, and another lady whose life was severely damaged by her adult relatives sexually using her from age 5 into her teen years.

    To be transparent, during my 25 year marriage with my children’s mother, I digressed into sex with two other ladies after sex with my dear wife turned unsatisfactory due to work schedule and my lack of devoted attention to our marriage. Yes, my heart was way off course.

    During one cheating encounter I was suddenly aware of the harm and hurt my sex with the dear lady I worked with would cause my wife, and immediately wanted to end our intercourse mid-stream. Yet, even then the sexual tension I had from what seemed to me as too little intercourse with my wife was released and physically my sexual drive was satisfied. I asked both the lady and my wife for us to be friends in hope of that arrangement giving me the sexual release that the diminished intercourse with my wife was lacking.

    Yes, I was not honoring my wife and our family integrity.

    5 years later, after her refusal to go along with my multiple sex partner idea and I stayed true in my heart and acts to her, I divulged to her my adultery. Her reaction was to divorce me about two months later.

    My next marriage lasted 17 years, in which my 2nd wife felt that I was not sexually devoted to her. it was rocky going most of those years, ending with her losing her health, rejecting me, entering assisted care housing 3 years, then dying. During this period a lady customer of mine from 16 years before moved nearby and we shared life and sex for a few months before she moved on.

    With my sexual desires not satisfied with these ladies and learning that a website for sincere swingers and anyone wanting to discuss sexual interests with others with some semblance of genuine sexual honesty and integrity I joined the website and looked for people to share my experiences with unsatisfied sexual relationships and hopefully learn about myself to learn and correct problems I was causing with ladies I desired to enjoy satisfying intercourse with.

    I am happy you expressed that to you sex is deeply intimate, semi-sacred, between dedicated lovers, and to be maintained in respect for one’s lover exclusively. This view is prevalent in our social community so it is our “Norm.” It is not everyone’s “norm,” and my quest was to determine what comprises satisfying sexual intercourse for myself and the lover(s) I share my body, emotions and deepest intimacies with.

    Many swingers are dedicated spouses and even multiple marriage partners with specific boundaries. As my quest into these folks’ sexual experiences uncovered their significant relationship issues, it was clear that men and women are designed with sexual integrity limits that exclude full sexual satisfaction where we include more than one other individual, and we are limited to this other individual being of the other gender.

    I did experience sex with two dear ladies together and was amazed to experience deep care for both, equally, as I know everyone deserves satisfying sexual intercourse for health and mental well being. Yet for one lady her reaction was that sharing the other with me sexually caused her to be stressed and feel she was taking the friend’s sexual satisfaction in some part away from her. The other lady – both were dear friends of mine – felt sexual detachment from me as though my sexual and caring love for her friend diminished the friendship and sexual relationship she wanted with me alone. In the end I had to walk away from both ladies, as both were dealing with childhood sexual damage caused by their fathers and other adult family men.

    Then I met the precious woman whom I live with the rest of my days. Her sexual boundaries are specifically limited to the two of us. Her concept of my enjoyment of social nudity with others in honorable, family-focused naturist groups is that it is somehow a sensual turn on for me and my sexual pursuit. She has a difficult time understanding my lack of sexual arousal when watching others having loving intercourse, as I enjoy home-made sex films for the enjoyment I have seeing others satisfy their lover(s) sexual and emotional needs. I’m glad that my arousal for sex is solely with her, too, as I feel free and clear about my honest relationship with her.

    In all, sex can be shared wisely with more than one other, but as I like to say, “If I have split affinity” with my sexual experiences, there’s brokenness that interrupts my love life, and I just want these vital memories with the fewest lovers possible.”

    misterbill0304, My condolences for you in this period of loss and lost belonging to the most vital one in your life here.

    Reply

  • Truth Really Is

    October 12th, 2018 at 5:19 PM

    The real problem is that there are so many women nowadays that are real W***** since they have that desire to sleep around with so many different men all the time instead of committing themselves to only one man. And as a single man myself i had my Ex Wife that cheated on me which i was the very faithful one at that time in my marriage before this happened to me. Many women unfortunately just can’t keep their legs closed at all anymore which years ago most women were very faithful and most men in those days as well. What in the world happened to these very pathetic low life loser women today?

    Reply

  • Claude A.

    October 15th, 2018 at 7:24 PM

    Oh, MY! I’m sad that you feel a need to bash women . . .
    How many men do you suppose do the life your ex was into? And, anyway, IF you were so unaware, then how much effort to clearly communicate and to allow her the space where you retained REAL care for her so she AND you could examine and emotionally support one another? Perhaps you could get her to share her side here?

    Reply

  • robert

    April 19th, 2019 at 2:43 PM

    If you want an open relationship,you do it from day one.If you want an open relationship after a few years into marriage(where you vow to be true etc) it is clear to me that your wife is either already having an affaire with someone or craves someone very badly.To go ahead with this would mean to her that you allowher to cheat and she will be in the clear in her mind.Say NO if you don’t want your wife to screw strangers/whoever and if she insists,leave.End it.Kids or no kids,she clearly doesn’t care what you think or feel.She wants her cake and it it.I personally think she allready has a lover and just wants it out in the open and be happy.You can only have an open relationship if BOTH agree .Otherwise it is called CHEATING.

    Reply

  • Claude A.

    April 21st, 2019 at 10:03 PM

    robert, how do you imagine that perspective?
    The reason I ask is that in your choice of expressions there is just one assumption; you are unequivocally more right and therefore in ‘obvious’ authority to impose your demands on your wife, like she is ‘property.’
    Over time and experience you change. We all change in the face of life experience. Does the wife who shares with her husband she senses need for sexual experience with others will provide her with a dimension she is considering enough to share it with him love him less?

    Of course not!
    If she did not love and respect her husband, why would she share her desire with him? So what if she’s involved with other sexual sources, because that’s a natural function we all have, and some suppress harder than others. Go join the TrueSwingers social venue and post that you are simply there to explore what sex with others really means to husbands and wives who do share and care for swingers and monogamous alike. Everyone has an individual take on sex with people not living in a vow together, yet the ‘open mind’ swingers talk about is not a set standard that fits all. ‘Open minded’ means those sharing life together care so deeply for each other that all thoughts are openly and fearlessly shared. There is no repression of any level of inquiry, and where deadly jealousy desires to divide, these brave lovers and dearest friends destroy jealousy by open discussion without condemnation and closed-heart blocking any detail in order to stay together on the same level of mutual respect and caring love that knit them together.

    See your response here as what it is, a tirade against your self’s best interests where your wife and you are most vulnerable – sex.

    Wrap your heart around the deepest caring your wife deserves and this includes her considering sex with others.
    One responder here, a wife, asked hubby for his blessing for her to enjoy sex with a dear male friend. Hubby immediately opened his selfless love and in their discussions she reported here that his conclusion to completely trust her to share any sex with her friend she wanted caused her to love and respect her husband so deeply that sex with any other was lost in her mind, and they went on to much deeper care for each other.
    an old truism states, essentially; Give full blessing to the ones you love most to leave you at will, and your response will be to love just as deeply with or without the union together.” This is real love. No jealousy permitted to spoil it.

    Reply

  • Claude

    October 12th, 2019 at 12:34 PM

    On October 11th, 2019, Derek illustrates his sense of disagreement on the principle of sexual encounters with others than one’s spouse, yet he may be unaware of his lack of understanding for those people who add sex with others to their marriage to increase their marital bond, on the one hand, while there ore many others whose experiences with others add misery to their marriage. The entire sensibility of added sexual experiences to marriage covers the essence of what marriage is all about – family.

    on a small scale of their total number, porn actors and actresses can and do maintain good marriages and children raising. How they do so is predicated on the same principle every successful marriage is grounded on, focus on the family. Sex comes and goes. Love, honest love, does not wane. One’s unwavering love of family and spouse(s) builds the indestructible foundation of home for the generations of the family. Sexual additions to the mix do not and cannot alter this foundation.

    Sadly, this foundation is rare today, and on a disappearing track as people focus on self.

    I believe Derek experiences a less than stable love foundation, as his response reflects the inner being he lives by and with. He is all too typical in this shaky, others’ dependent sense of family foundation.

    There is a simple solution. Focus on the honest characteristics that form sustainable family for generations, and there is the undying love that ties spouses together for their duty to their family, both past and future, and present. In other words, focus on self as a means to both satisfy and nurture family and spouse and thereby nurture and support the good of those others in the family. Sex is critical to good family, and sex is vital to the foundation of sustainable family, so add to this ingredient wisely, and protect this vital element whether it includes more than one spouse-like participant, or is limited to one sexual participant. Sex is a gift of our body designer, but sex is not the essence of life nor of family. Like meals without desserts, relationships without entertaining and benefiting sexual encounters is doable, but never so rewarding as spousal relationships with plenty of numerous kinds of sensual experiences.

    Relationships, sensual ones included, are never the same in any two experiences. Be free to experiment and free to fail, but also free to discover set limits and free to widen borders for the benefits of other family members.

    Reply

  • Derek

    October 28th, 2019 at 6:54 PM

    Claude you are right I am unaware of how sex with others strengthens marital bound, but please do explain how that works.

    Your statement about porn performers is probably the worst example possible to try and defend your claim about open relationship. You do realize that porn is a fantasy and entertainment right? It’s not real and the performers have a image to keep up for the benefit of their career. As for the porn industry I think you need to do more research, try looking up “ your brain on porn” or “fight the new drug”. Porn has nothing positive to offer, it is a negative impact on society.

    Reply

  • Paul

    November 28th, 2019 at 6:53 PM

    If a woman asks for this, she might already have a partner for adultery in line, and wants permission to do it. Whether you consent or not, it is still adultery and a sin against God for her to do it. Absolutely refuse and tell her it’s immoral. Ask her who she wants to sleep with.

    I hear a lot of open relationships don’t last that long.

    By commenting I do not agree to the terms and conditions because I don’t wnant to read them.

    Reply

  • Claude

    November 30th, 2019 at 2:03 PM

    Fascinating to me . . .

    You rant about morals that your ‘god’ {I read and study The Deity’s own Hebrew Scripture} requires and try to slap YOUR ideas onto all other readers here, BUT…

    You refuse to read and abide by the stated site terms and conditions?

    Yeah, sure. Like, you assume thinking readers give you any credibility?

    Reply

  • Moral Warrior

    August 12th, 2020 at 6:50 PM

    Whoa…. after reading all the comments, here is my input:

    If a wife/girlfriend wants to have an “open relationship”, men in my country would immediately put their foot down – and for a good reason!!!!

    Here girls are raised to become virtuous and feminine, because it is common knowledge that guys will never even think of marrying them if they have a reputation of being a “village bicycle” and sleeping around. Of course young men sleep with willing young women, but only for their own pleasure and spreading the message to other young men. Men will ride her like a bicycle, all knowing that she is definitely not marriage material.

    When a wife decides to ‘explore her needs’ outside the marriage, she destroys the family’s reputation in a bang. Her husband will be openly ridiculed and looked down on for allowing his wife ‘roll in the haystack’ with other men, he loses his good reputation thanks to her, relatives are in deep shame and shut them out, women spread the message around and she; along with her husband, lose their status in the community. She becomes a pariah. No women would let their husbands even close to her, knowing she has zero respect for marital boundaries and is hellbent on destroying marriages. The community starts to guard and protect itself from her.

    Is that worth it? To destroy your husband’s and his family’s reputation just because you give into the lowest animalistic needs? Because you are going down with your husband, like it or not. Sure you will find men who are willing to ride you like a village bicycle, but they will never form any emotional relationship with you. Never. Men can have sex without emotions, but women can’t. Men having sex with a “village bicycle” will use and abuse her. Her reputation is lost forever.

    A marriage is supposed to be a sacred commitment. So far I have not seen three being married at the same time, it is for two people only. A marriage gives a fence and a new kind of freedom. Freedom to grow closer with the spouse and deepen the love.

    This should be a no brainer. Suddenly Western nations have these weird role reversals. Woman act like men and men act like women. Women demand that men get in touch with their emotions?!?! WTF?

    Men, stand up!!! Never feel that you are less of a man. A man is a man. Women, let men be men and don’t try to act like them by becoming masculine. Masculinity in a woman is not appealing, not in the least.

    Sorry, I had to give my two cents. Kudos to everyone here who are against these ‘open marriages’, which a extremely destructive.

    During the Ice Age humans lived in caves as tribes. Each family had their own fire place. Men chose women to be their monogomous spouses, to give birth to their children and in return the man took care of his family, including her parents. Men were often out hunting for food and they could be away for months. If a man’s woman had slept with other men during that time and was carrying another man’s child, he left her and her parents immediately. Otherwise he would have become the laughing stock in the tribe. It was a certain death for the unfaithful woman and her parents. No fireplace because nobody wanted them. Women learned quickly to be faithful to their men.

    Reply

  • Claude

    August 14th, 2020 at 10:33 PM

    hey guy, “moral warrior,” you “eastern” abuses of women are legend. You have zero morality in that ages old disrespect for women, so let’s simply apply the same lack of respect to the fake moral voice in your obvious message origin. It has no place in any part of the universe. “Riding women like bicycles just to show others how” is reprehensible and lowers you own clear stand toward women.

    Reply

  • Claude

    August 15th, 2020 at 2:38 AM

    for “Derek.”

    I missed your response to my statement sex with others can strengthen a marriage. Sorry for this long delay.

    You respond…

    “Your statement about porn performers is probably the worst example possible to try and defend your claim about open relationship. You do realize that porn is a fantasy and entertainment right? It’s not real and the performers have a image to keep up for the benefit of their career. As for the porn industry I think you need to do more research, try looking up “ your brain on porn” or “fight the new drug”. Porn has nothing positive to offer, it is a negative impact on society.”

    To your thoughts, have you found “Make Love, Not Porn” website? Filled with loving couples” home sex videos shared with any adults who love and benefit from or not, watching others’ sharing sex.

    So far as you assert porn is fantasy, only, you are about 30% correct. What you apparently miss is the so-called amateur porn side of sharing sexual activity records.

    Why?

    Then there are loving couples and polyamory marriages you apparently ignore. How about polygamy marriages where it is the wife or wives who request their .

    husband take another wife?
    As one who speaks to marital problem resolutions, why not be tuned into the real world of individuality instead of one solution fits all?

    Reply

  • Moral Warrior

    August 16th, 2020 at 2:26 PM

    Sigh…. I am female and have no idea what you mean by “eastern abuses of women”, which is supposed to be some kind ol legend?!

    Let me tell you how it works from a female POV: Our country was attacked by a massive neighbor (have you ever heard the name Stalin?). We got no help from other countries and we were left on our own. 3.5 million residents vs 120 million residents. Our army was small but it was filled with tough men who were ready to die for their families. The war lasted three months, the aggressor never crossed the border and women, children and elderly were safe all the time.

    Women knew that men were going to protect them. Men fought while women took over the factories, civilians gave all protein-rich food to the soldiers and women made warm food for them and took care of them. When the aggressor had lost over a million soldiers, he made a truce with our country. We lost about 26 thousand men if you want to compare the losses.

    Did we feel ‘abused’ when our men took up arms and went to the border to protect us? Were we grateful when they stopped the invasion at the border, our country being the only country Stalin was unable to occupy? Did we resent that we could not take up arms and go fighting with the men? Men protect women and women make sure that they are worthy to be protected. Women – and men – stayed faithful during the war.

    To this day it is crystal clear to us women, that men protect us and we give them a loving home in return. Even during peace time the man is the head of the house.

    In my country women are the fiercest opponents to Feminism, because they are free and have everything they want and nothing to complain about. We have family values and morals, love our husbands and never give them any reason to feel jealous or that some other man would seduce us. There is no abuse. Men treat women like flowers and with utmost respect. We have real families, where parents set the example to their children by their own example. And everybody is happy.

    Imagine if your country is suddenly attacked. Do you see how this goes way deeper than your superficial definitions of sexual relationships? Just how respected does your multiple women feel? It is difficult to feel respected when your hubby is having sex with another women. Or vice versa.

    But hey, we all get to make our own choices. Just remember to take responsibility for your choices if things go south. To be able to respect and love your spouse and your spouse only is the challenge. To be able to make love so you don’t know where you end or where he starts, being One for a short moment, that cannot be learned by wife sharing or cuckolding. It is sex for you and love for us who live respecting values and morals.

    Reply

  • Moral Warrior

    August 17th, 2020 at 5:51 AM

    Claude wrote: “Riding women like bicycles just to show others how” is reprehensible and lowers you own clear stand toward women.”
    Imagine you are a young man ready and willing to take a wife and start a family of your own. Who do you choose to woe; a decent woman who is known for not sleeping around or a woman who has a reputation of sleeping around with many men? Are you willing to marry a woman who is not trustworthy around men, a woman who gives birth to children with you being unsure if you are the father, a woman who everybody is gossiping about, who has been seen making out with other men even when married to you etc. etc.?

    If you want a decent woman as your wife, then you are certain that she brings up Your children with morals. Boys and girls.They will be the most appealing grooms and brides.
    A ‘loose’ wife brings up boys who sleep around with all the girls – and girls who sleep around with all the boys. Hence there will always be those who want to ‘ride the bicycle’ and those who want to be the ‘bicycle’.
    A man without morals is someone who is shunned, because he will try and seduce the wives and girlfriends of his friends. Only a ‘loose’ woman will fall for them. A decent woman won’t even look at him. Same vice versa.

    So if your wife or husband wants to play around and have an open marriage, take a looka at their parents. They are the end products of their parents. If they lack morals and decency, then you can’t blame anyone else but yourself. It was you who took him or her as your spouse, maybe even foolishly thinking that s/he will become virtuous once married to you. Wrong! And so the cycle goes on and on.
    Birds of a feather stick together!

    Relationships are always destroyed from within, with one spouse wanting to ‘explore the field’ and doing it either in secrecy or openly – insert “open marriage” – and inviting outside persons to help with destroying all boundaries. There is no “moral cure” for that, except for the moral partner to leave – hopefully before the marriage is on fire.
    I am not trying to force people into thinking the way I am thinking. It would be useless and disrespectful of people’s free will. But I think I am allowed to voice my own opinions, me being the end product of a virtuous mother and a ‘loose’ father, who rode several bicycles until we children begged our mother to divorce our father. Funny thing is, that out of their three children two are virtious with morals, while the third one has absolutely no morals whatsoever, she even seduced mom’s boyfriend behind her back. Am I entitled to voice my opinion based upon own life experiences?

    Reply

  • Claude

    August 17th, 2020 at 11:02 AM

    voicing OUR COLLECTIVE opines is more than OK! Here in this nation, unlike those where “bicycles” are regularly used to instruct young men sex, and then spurned by the same men as wife worthy, our Constitution protects the lawful use of non-physical abusive sharing opinions by all. So, Moral…, thank you, and on the other hand, non-physically abusive rebuttals are protected, and fiercely encouraged, otherwise OUR nation would be overrun with the same rogue leaders we now have trying to force citizens to accepting their unlawful mandates and breaking laws by doing their mandates. Discussion of that is for another topic.

    Now, for you, and the way that your family sexual experiences went, OUR life choices are uniquely ours alone. Trying to lay down moral demands for others is our Creator’s domain alone. In Eternal Wisdom, Creator specifies only two Eternal Moral laws. Both, together, form that civil coduct which lies at the base of U. S. Constitution law…

    A. Place Creator above all Creation…
    B. Selflessly care for all creatures with the very same selfless caring Creator cares for us.

    This Eternal Way of moral fellowship is beyond our finite means to do, therefore everyone is dependent upon Creator one wsy or another to manage this and effectively practice it, even to the least degree.

    This is also Constitutional in OUR U.S. nation. Rogue vigilante’ citizens may demand their unlawful conduct, but in the Final Word, mutual respect ends the discord.
    The moral experiences your family has, seen in this non-condemning, Eternal Moral attitude may well encourage each family member, yourself included, to decide to treat each other with selfless love in place of castigation based on individual or social or religious conventions, understanding that we individuals are enabled by our Creator to either carry on in our harmful conduct, or correct it, and therefore, yes, those poor “bicycles” be fully worthy of fully honorable motherhood, with their inner realignment with Creator’s Eternal Selfless caring for Him above all else, and others just we are selflessly cared for by Creator.
    Casitgation for others not following our concept of morality just flies in the face of universal selfless caring which raises us all above the petty rogue citizen mandates we may think we have superior moral grounds to lay upon others, others who may well be far more practicing selfless caring for others than ourselves.

    Reply

  • Moral Warrior

    August 18th, 2020 at 4:11 PM

    You did notice, didn’t you, that we don’t go around calling them “prostitutes” or even worse words. Yet you chose to cling to the word “bicycle”.

    I could give you several “words” that we use, words with humour like ‘bicycle’ but will refrain to two similar words. When Stalin dropped bombs on civilians, his minister Molotov was assuring the world that Russia is only dropping food to the “starving Finns”, not bombs. Finns started immediately to call the bombs “Molotov’s bread baskets’. The border was filled with attacking tankers, so Finns came up with a ‘poor man’s weapon’, gasoline bottles which blew up the Russian tankers. And not to forget the humor we called the gasoline bottles “Molotov’s cocktails” – a beverage to go with the food. See the sarcasm: bread baskets and cocktails? People talk about Molotov’s cocktails without knowing where the name is derived from. Finnish sarcastic witty humor.

    Hence I don’t understand the rage about ‘bicycles’?!!?

    Your word salad cannot be compared to our witty humour. You want me to say that ‘oh, of course wife sharing is an awesome thing, my morals need to be updated’ or something else. Our moral values are deeply rooted and justifying your own sexual perversions by calling them ‘selfless morals’ would be mocked and ridiculed in my country.

    That said everyone is free to live their life the way they want, even in my country. Unless it is peadophilia or sexual abuse or selling sexual services, you know those things that Western civilizations have deemed to be unlawful. Whenever someone is even mildly forced to do something, our law steps in. We do care about each and everyone and we are always on the victims’s side. Always.

    ATM we have info spots on television, about child marriages around the world.

    It was not my intention to get so badly under your skin.

    Reply

  • Claude

    August 19th, 2020 at 9:32 PM

    Hmmm…

    Condemning those who do not adhere to your concepts of ‘moral’ is what destroyed all freedom behind the Iron Curtain. Here the words you condemn my views with continue that failed rule. Well, it’s not so much under my skin as it’s iron fisted demand for you to dictate to others what’s ‘moral.’
    Let’s be clear that caring and honest differences make for social breadth, and castigating makes for loss of civility.

    Reply

  • Moral Warrior

    August 21st, 2020 at 2:46 PM

    “Condemning those who do not adhere to your concepts of ‘moral’ is what destroyed all freedom behind the Iron Curtain. ”

    Oh my, you don’t know much about what went on before and during the Iron Curtain, do you?

    Finland was never behind the Iron Curtain thanks to our brave and courageous soldiers. The slogan during the war was: “God, Fatherland, Family”

    The reason why we fought so hard to stay free from Soviet Union was, that it was common knowledge how ever since the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917, the morality of Russians was destroyed. From the beginning it was free sex for all, the state encouraged Russians to walk nude in the cities embracing nudity, threesomes were encouraged, children were to be allowed to “explore their sexuality”, leading to children having sex in parks, forests and staircases. “Privatization of one woman” was outlawed by law, because all women were “State properties” and had to make sex whenever a stranger wanted. That was wife sharing in its purest form. Divorces were easy to get along with abortions. Religion was outlawed, children were taught in schools that believing in God is a mental disorder. All forms of sexuality were encouraged and allowed. The state had campaigns with slogans like “Down with the Shame!”, “Sexual freedom to everyone”, “Sexual satisfaction should be as easy as quenching your thirst” etc. etc. They were absolutely “free” behind the Iron Curtain and they had nothing to fear from Finland’s Patriarchy and Finland’s morals and values. It was Finns who feared losing them, seeing how hedonism blossomed in Soviet Union – with the blessing and encouragment of the state itself.

    The “sexual freedom” behind the Iron Curtain caused a sharp rise in rapes, sexually transmitted diseases, abandoned children and so on..

    The whole male Russian population was effectively cuckolded and they had no power over it. The whole female Russian population were hotwives. That was the New and Glorious Moralism instilled in every citizen. When illiterate Russians living in the countryside were educated to read, they used pornographic drawings to educate them.

    That is how you disarm a society, making men weak and powerless and women ensured, that men will not protect them no matter what.
    Summa summarum: Behind the Iron Curtain it was people like us Finns who were condemnded and executed in Soviet Union. The were a moral threat to the state. So I don’t understand how people like us Finns ‘destroyed the freedom’, because everyone there were encouraged to sexual satisfaction and no man was allowed to have a wife or a family for that matter.

    But that’s how it goes. Freedom can be a prison or a safe haven – it depends who you ask.

    That is the reason why post-communist people have no values or morals. Most of them have no idea what morals and values mean. Sure the sexual freedom was at times taken away and then given back – by the state.

    Reply

  • Claude

    August 22nd, 2020 at 9:04 PM

    Moral Warrior.

    Bless you, sir. It finally is refreshing to have you plainly state the nation-destroying immoral use of sexual deviance to end sovereign nations! We all must heed your experiences as they are now being forced upon us globally by the very same groups.

    I stand by my statements of sexual conduct that can seem to mirror immoral conduct, but radically differs by the fact those so engaged are fully opposed to the disrespectful uses of sexual activities, which sets apart those who engage in the activities you clearly define.

    Promiscuity and sexual abuse by way of any disrespectful mindset is immoral by every measure. Thankfully, a crime in most nations.
    Thank you for clarifying your homeland, Finland. However, what I refer to as “con-munism” is now world wide, and very much so in the U.S. we conservatives are standing face to face with this evil deception, and our alarm is the very same as that your conservative population faced. By no means are our people to endure this onslaught, just as I was in Vietnam, supposedly defending the right to responsible liberties, opposed to the irresponsible license that the con-munists demanded to destroy that nation with, and ultimately succeeded to do, trashing South Vietnam.

    Morality is not subjective, nor is it an object to be applied differently in separate situations. Our Creator directs us to respect, but that respect is never applied one way here, and another there. This respect covers different sexual relationships that always follow the order to procreate and remain in the family one so procreates against all odds against such lifetime commitment. Marriage isn’t the issue, commitment is.

    Anyway, thank you, Moral Warrior. We are on the same side.

    Reply

  • Rock

    April 13th, 2021 at 7:15 PM

    The couples that thinking about open relation ship at first place are not involved in any kind of believe
    Since the believe limits you to to rules that you had been dictated to obey ,most the used to be believers
    Have come to their senses and have released themselves from the taboos and non Spence social dos and not to dos ,nature has put the sexuality in you in order to use you to reproduce for it and the joy arisen from intercourses has been limited just for that purpose only ,now this is for you and me to break this barrier and make the use of the short period of life for both men and woman
    Keeping this under a discipline obviously will make it mor productive and pleasur full
    I strait forward told my lady if she wants to experience an other guys warmth the answer with a short delay was positive and the fist time we swapped with a very classy good looking couple the man pleasure himself and my wife ,I did the to myself and his wife and in the morning the ladies joint to their husbands

    Reply

  • JWALL

    January 25th, 2022 at 9:46 AM

    My goodness you don’t know much about God’s will If I started quoting the amount of passages in the Bible that clearly state Adultery YES Adultery I a crime of Death penalty I would be hear all Day and to be very very clear it is adultery to go with another person to have sex whether both couples agree or not so stop it with the trying to justify Adultery because none of you can in any way shape or form Also when divorced you cannot marry another person while your partner is Alive. My God help these people the whole lot of them are the Devils disciples.

    Reply

  • Lovingman

    January 25th, 2022 at 12:27 PM

    So in your view if I am sick and no longer can give sexual pleasure to my wife and she still very horny then I should kill myself so she can marry someone else in order to get to enjoy pleasure right

    Reply

  • Claude

    January 25th, 2022 at 9:39 PM

    JWALL, perhaps a good reread of original Hebrew scripture will help you with wrongful church dogmas

    Reply

  • Thota

    September 11th, 2023 at 2:54 PM

    Nice post. I was checking constantly this weblog and I’m impressed!

    Reply

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