Comments on: Awake People – Sexual Boundaries and Therapeutic Opportunity http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/sexual-boundaries/ Exploring Healthy Psychotherapy Fri, 10 Feb 2012 01:06:51 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Jen http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/sexual-boundaries/#comment-25830 Jen Mon, 14 Dec 2009 00:46:27 +0000 http://www.goodtherapy.org/custom/blog/?p=1475#comment-25830 In My program of study while training to be a clinical social worker, in all of my course work, one professor mentioned and acknowledged this reality--that is, the reality of how people develop romantic attractions. Therapy is a very intimate relationship--clients may say things to you they don't even say to their spouses; things they might never have told anyone else. The good therapist responds with compassion and acceptance, without judgment--perhaps the first person in the client's life to have ever done so. That anyone would be surprised when clients develop attraction to their therapist (or vice-versa) is bewildering to me. The funny thing is, this one professor who brought it up was not teaching a "clinical" course. He was teaching a course about the history of public policy around mental health services. NONE of my clinical professors brought this up, and I think it does a disservice to students and their future clients, alike. I have to wonder if it is denial or just discomfort that prevented this. Perhaps none of them would want to invite questions from students as to whether their own emotions have gotten the better of them with clients (and I don't even mean acting out sexual desire. I mean, are they afraid to admit if they ever had feelings for a client?). It's human for a client or a therapist to develop such feelings. But it's unprofessional, unethical, and occasionally downright predatory to act upon or encourage those feelings in a client. The mental health profession has to talk about this more openly and clearly to prevent people like Allison from being taken advantage of. He is wrestling with you on the couch? He is Married? He's a licensed professional? Whose needs is this man serving? Certainly not yours. He is encouraging you in a direction in which he himself cannot go. What does that say to you? I hope you will stand up for yourself and prevent him from doing this to others (and don't doubt he is capable of it, and perhaps even already doing it). Please report him to the licensing board in your state. Please find a therapist who is actually worthy of your trust. Please do it right away. And please, please begin to see this man for what he really is. Jen In My program of study while training to be a clinical social worker, in all of my course work, one professor mentioned and acknowledged this reality–that is, the reality of how people develop romantic attractions. Therapy is a very intimate relationship–clients may say things to you they don’t even say to their spouses; things they might never have told anyone else. The good therapist responds with compassion and acceptance, without judgment–perhaps the first person in the client’s life to have ever done so. That anyone would be surprised when clients develop attraction to their therapist (or vice-versa) is bewildering to me.
The funny thing is, this one professor who brought it up was not teaching a “clinical” course. He was teaching a course about the history of public policy around mental health services. NONE of my clinical professors brought this up, and I think it does a disservice to students and their future clients, alike. I have to wonder if it is denial or just discomfort that prevented this. Perhaps none of them would want to invite questions from students as to whether their own emotions have gotten the better of them with clients (and I don’t even mean acting out sexual desire. I mean, are they afraid to admit if they ever had feelings for a client?). It’s human for a client or a therapist to develop such feelings. But it’s unprofessional, unethical, and occasionally downright predatory to act upon or encourage those feelings in a client.
The mental health profession has to talk about this more openly and clearly to prevent people like Allison from being taken advantage of.
He is wrestling with you on the couch? He is Married? He’s a licensed professional? Whose needs is this man serving? Certainly not yours. He is encouraging you in a direction in which he himself cannot go. What does that say to you? I hope you will stand up for yourself and prevent him from doing this to others (and don’t doubt he is capable of it, and perhaps even already doing it). Please report him to the licensing board in your state. Please find a therapist who is actually worthy of your trust. Please do it right away.
And please, please begin to see this man for what he really is.

Jen

]]> By: Dennis Thoennes http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/sexual-boundaries/#comment-19209 Dennis Thoennes Tue, 16 Jun 2009 22:58:00 +0000 http://www.goodtherapy.org/custom/blog/?p=1475#comment-19209 Allison, Yes, staggering and sad. I regret that you have been so severely and (apparently) repeatedly abused. Yes, it is OK for a client to fall in love with his or her therapist. For many of us this is a normal response to being with someone who pays us such close, compassionate care, who gives us time, interest and attention. It is the therapist’s responsibility to moniter him/herself and refer the client to someone who can provide the appropriate care if he/she cannot do so. It is the THERAPIST’S responsibility to seek their own therapy, consultation and/or supervision. From your email message it appears you may still be seeing this therapist. There are a number of steps you can, should take. 1) Terminate therapy now. Your trust has already been violated by this person. Further sessions or meeting with him is not likely to be to your benefit. 2) Find another therapist. You can call the state psychological society/association or the American Board of Professional Psychology for a referral. You can also talk with friends aND see if any of them are seeing a therapist they know to be competent and ethical. Also, you could use the goodtherapy “find a therapist” for leads for a good therapist. 3) You could report this person to the state licensing board, the state psychological association and American Psychological Association (assuming your therapist is a psychologist). Allison, we all make mistakes. What you described is a blatent violation of professional ethics and constitutes a pattern of abuse. A cigar may be just a cigar but abuse should never be tolerated or treated in a cavelier manner. YOU deserve better. Dennis Thoennes Allison,
Yes, staggering and sad. I regret that you have been so severely and (apparently) repeatedly abused.
Yes, it is OK for a client to fall in love with his or her therapist. For many of us this is a normal response to being with someone who pays us such close, compassionate care, who gives us time, interest and attention. It is the therapist’s responsibility to moniter him/herself and refer the client to someone who can provide the appropriate care if he/she cannot do so. It is the THERAPIST’S responsibility to seek their own therapy, consultation and/or supervision.
From your email message it appears you may still be seeing this therapist. There are a number of steps you can, should take. 1) Terminate therapy now. Your trust has already been violated by this person. Further sessions or meeting with him is not likely to be to your benefit. 2) Find another therapist. You can call the state psychological society/association or the American Board of Professional Psychology for a referral. You can also talk with friends aND see if any of them are seeing a therapist they know to be competent and ethical. Also, you could use the goodtherapy “find a therapist” for leads for a good therapist. 3) You could report this person to the state licensing board, the state psychological association and American Psychological Association (assuming your therapist is a psychologist).
Allison, we all make mistakes. What you described is a blatent violation of professional ethics and constitutes a pattern of abuse. A cigar may be just a cigar but abuse should never be tolerated or treated in a cavelier manner. YOU deserve better.
Dennis Thoennes

]]> By: Allison http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/sexual-boundaries/#comment-19202 Allison Tue, 16 Jun 2009 22:45:55 +0000 http://www.goodtherapy.org/custom/blog/?p=1475#comment-19202 P.S. Unfortunately, it doesn’t matter how much training therapists have, there will always be therapists who cross boundaries, since what goes on behind closed doors will rarely be reported by the therapist. I read that there are at least 100 therapists who lose their licenses every year, due to sexual impropiety. Just imagine the therapists (whose behavior) we know nothing about…..staggering, I will bet. P.S. Unfortunately, it doesn’t matter how much training therapists have, there will always be therapists who cross boundaries, since what goes on behind closed doors will rarely be reported by the therapist.

I read that there are at least 100 therapists who lose their licenses every year, due to sexual impropiety. Just imagine the therapists (whose behavior) we know nothing about…..staggering, I will bet.

]]> By: Allison http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/sexual-boundaries/#comment-19201 Allison Tue, 16 Jun 2009 22:44:55 +0000 http://www.goodtherapy.org/custom/blog/?p=1475#comment-19201 For Dr. Thoennes: I think some things in life are simple….why would falling in love with a client mean “what is this saying about me?”—the therapist.. Like Freud said: “Sometimes a cigar, is just a cigar.” Unfortunately, I fell in love with my therapist 5 years ago; even more unfortunately he has feelings for me and has led me on (physically and verbally). I have done a “ton” of research on client/therapist relationships, boundaries, etc., etc….the best book I read: “Sex in the Forbidden Zone” by peter Rutter….when professionals violate boundaries. Kind Regards, Allison P.S. I have written to Dr. Andrea Celenza (expert in dealing with therapists who violate boundaries)….. Just a few of the hundreds of things my therapist has said: “If I were not married, I would probably go for it.” You are in my heart and in my head.” He has wrestled with me and thrown me on the couch….I could write a book…sexual innuendoes…I know that no one can help me, because I see what is going on, but am not ready to confront him yet. For Dr. Thoennes: I think some things in life are simple….why would falling in love with a client mean “what is this saying about me?”—the therapist..

Like Freud said: “Sometimes a cigar, is just a cigar.”

Unfortunately, I fell in love with my therapist 5 years ago; even more unfortunately he has feelings for me and has led me on (physically and verbally). I have done a “ton” of research on client/therapist relationships, boundaries, etc., etc….the best book I read: “Sex in the Forbidden Zone” by peter Rutter….when professionals violate boundaries.

Kind Regards, Allison

P.S. I have written to Dr. Andrea Celenza (expert in dealing with therapists who violate boundaries)…..

Just a few of the hundreds of things my therapist has said: “If I were not married, I would probably go for it.” You are in my heart and in my head.” He has wrestled with me and thrown me on the couch….I could write a book…sexual innuendoes…I know that no one can help me, because I see what is going on, but am not ready to confront him yet.

]]> By: Dennis Thoennes http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/sexual-boundaries/#comment-19199 Dennis Thoennes Tue, 16 Jun 2009 16:28:03 +0000 http://www.goodtherapy.org/custom/blog/?p=1475#comment-19199 Good Morning Marcia, Thank you for taking the time to provide your perspective and share your thoughts. I agree that we, as a profession, need to move beyond right/wrong. I believe that as we do we find that what may have looked simple initially begins to be realized as rather complex. "Falling in love" has many elements. As mental health professionals perhaps it's a fair expectation our clients and the public have, that we have awareness of this and are vigilant in attending to this as we attend as well to our clients processes, needs and wants. As the poet William Stafford notes (A Poem To Read To Each Other) "... it is important that awake people remain awake lest we loose our path". If I find myself "falling in love" with a client it is likely important that I ask "What's this saying to me about me?" and then discuss this with a close friend and/or my therapist. Those who cross this boundary rarely do these three things. Dennis Thoennes Ph.D. Good Morning Marcia,
Thank you for taking the time to provide your perspective and share your thoughts.
I agree that we, as a profession, need to move beyond right/wrong. I believe that as we do we find that what may have looked simple initially begins to be realized as rather complex. “Falling in love” has many elements. As mental health professionals perhaps it’s a fair expectation our clients and the public have, that we have awareness of this and are vigilant in attending to this as we attend as well to our clients processes, needs and wants. As the poet William Stafford notes (A Poem To Read To Each Other) “… it is important that awake people remain awake lest we loose our path”. If I find myself “falling in love” with a client it is likely important that I ask “What’s this saying to me about me?” and then discuss this with a close friend and/or my therapist. Those who cross this boundary rarely do these three things.
Dennis Thoennes Ph.D.

]]> By: Marcia http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/sexual-boundaries/#comment-19183 Marcia Tue, 16 Jun 2009 05:07:48 +0000 http://www.goodtherapy.org/custom/blog/?p=1475#comment-19183 Don't you think that there is something human and normal about falling in love with a therapist? Throughout the ages, therapists ( and a lot of famous ones) and their clients have fallen prey to the most human of emotions - love. No, it is not ok to act out on these feelings but we can't confine our opinion to wrong/right, black/white- people fall in love regardless of where they are and what profession they are in. I think we have to find more ways to help therapists who find themselves in this place so that they know they can get help that won't be judgmental and punitive. Don’t you think that there is something human and normal about falling in love with a therapist? Throughout the ages, therapists ( and a lot of famous ones) and their clients have fallen prey to the most human of emotions – love. No, it is not ok to act out on these feelings but we can’t confine our opinion to wrong/right, black/white- people fall in love regardless of where they are and what profession they are in. I think we have to find more ways to help therapists who find themselves in this place so that they know they can get help that won’t be judgmental and punitive.

]]> By: Allison http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/sexual-boundaries/#comment-17609 Allison Mon, 04 May 2009 10:38:09 +0000 http://www.goodtherapy.org/custom/blog/?p=1475#comment-17609 I fell in love with my therapist 5 years ago and we have discussed it. I don't call it transference; if I had met him anywhere else, I would have felt the same. Unfortunately my t has led me on; this is more common than you realize. Statistics are that a 100 psychotherapists lose their licenses every year for sexual impropriety; I am sure the number is much higher. Rarely, do psychotherapists/psychiatrists self-report. The most common reason therapists act out sexually, is because of "love-sickness." I fell in love with my therapist 5 years ago and we have discussed it. I don’t call it transference; if I had met him anywhere else, I would have felt the same.

Unfortunately my t has led me on; this is more common than you realize. Statistics are that a 100 psychotherapists lose their licenses every year for sexual impropriety; I am sure the number is much higher. Rarely, do psychotherapists/psychiatrists self-report.

The most common reason therapists act out sexually, is because of “love-sickness.”

]]> By: Dennis Thoennes http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/sexual-boundaries/#comment-15536 Dennis Thoennes Wed, 25 Feb 2009 22:26:23 +0000 http://www.goodtherapy.org/custom/blog/?p=1475#comment-15536 Hello all and thanks first of all for reading the article and secondly for your comments. It has been my experience that I need all the resources I can get and I want ready access to them. Clients want me to use all of my resources to serve them. This, to me, means that they want, need and deserve me to be a professional psychologist and a real person simultaneously. If the client presents with a servere headache he/she wants my professional evaluation (is this a tension headache or perhaps a brain tumor, drug or food related) and they want a living, breathing compassionate person to be meeting with them. Likewise when they come to see me is all of them welome? This does not mean they have license to act out severely e.g. do physical damage to me, property or others in the parking lot or waiting room. It does mean they can manifest aspects of them, their thinking and feeling they might keep under lock and key otherwise. Alan Schore (the brilliant pscyhologist from UC Medical School) speaks of the left brain being that part of us that is logical, verbal, and cognitive. The right brain is that part of us that is warm, affectionate, compassionate, affiliative. My clients need all of me. I need all of me to be able to relate to all of them. A part of my job is to help them recognize, relate to and utilize all of them. This doesn't happen if I and/or they predetermine parts of me or them are, by definition, not welcome, not part of the whole person. Such partitioning is more a part of pathologizing, polarizing and dysfunction. When all parts are welcome and found a role in healthy functioning we have more vitality, freedom and both intrapersonal and interpersonal collaboration. Hello all and thanks first of all for reading the article and secondly for your comments.
It has been my experience that I need all the resources I can get and I want ready access to them. Clients want me to use all of my resources to serve them. This, to me, means that they want, need and deserve me to be a professional psychologist and a real person simultaneously. If the client presents with a servere headache he/she wants my professional evaluation (is this a tension headache or perhaps a brain tumor, drug or food related) and they want a living, breathing compassionate person to be meeting with them.
Likewise when they come to see me is all of them welome? This does not mean they have license to act out severely e.g. do physical damage to me, property or others in the parking lot or waiting room. It does mean they can manifest aspects of them, their thinking and feeling they might keep under lock and key otherwise.
Alan Schore (the brilliant pscyhologist from UC Medical School) speaks of the left brain being that part of us that is logical, verbal, and cognitive. The right brain is that part of us that is warm, affectionate, compassionate, affiliative. My clients need all of me. I need all of me to be able to relate to all of them. A part of my job is to help them recognize, relate to and utilize all of them. This doesn’t happen if I and/or they predetermine parts of me or them are, by definition, not welcome, not part of the whole person. Such partitioning is more a part of pathologizing, polarizing and dysfunction. When all parts are welcome and found a role in healthy functioning we have more vitality, freedom and both intrapersonal and interpersonal collaboration.

]]> By: Kelli http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/sexual-boundaries/#comment-14867 Kelli Tue, 27 Jan 2009 13:07:31 +0000 http://www.goodtherapy.org/custom/blog/?p=1475#comment-14867 Again this all comes down to the therapist being able to remian a professional in situations like this that you know have to arise from time to time. Of course the clients may be needy but the professional has to be the one to say that this is not appropriate and to not engage in any of this type of behavior. I would think that if this kind of engagement did arise during a client's treatment it could be very detrimental to his or her overall healing process. Again this all comes down to the therapist being able to remian a professional in situations like this that you know have to arise from time to time. Of course the clients may be needy but the professional has to be the one to say that this is not appropriate and to not engage in any of this type of behavior. I would think that if this kind of engagement did arise during a client’s treatment it could be very detrimental to his or her overall healing process.

]]> By: Hillary http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/sexual-boundaries/#comment-14759 Hillary Fri, 23 Jan 2009 11:42:10 +0000 http://www.goodtherapy.org/custom/blog/?p=1475#comment-14759 I wonder if this is what they call Catch 22. It is definitely difficult for the therapist to be effective in this case. I think people who are lonely and who need attention would be those seeking a non professional relationship with a therapist. I wonder if this is what they call Catch 22. It is definitely difficult for the therapist to be effective in this case. I think people who are lonely and who need attention would be those seeking a non professional relationship with a therapist.

]]> By: Sheila http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/sexual-boundaries/#comment-14711 Sheila Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:11:22 +0000 http://www.goodtherapy.org/custom/blog/?p=1475#comment-14711 I have actually heard of this before and it makes me wonder if these people are reaching out for attention that they may not be getting elsewhere. It doesn't give them the right to act out toward a therapist. It seems to me they are missing something in their lives and looking, hopefully to someone who understands. I do believe, tho, that they do not need to act out toward the help they are getting. I have actually heard of this before and it makes me wonder if these people are reaching out for attention that they may not be getting elsewhere. It doesn’t give them the right to act out toward a therapist. It seems to me they are missing something in their lives and looking, hopefully to someone who understands. I do believe, tho, that they do not need to act out toward the help they are getting.

]]> By: Molly http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/sexual-boundaries/#comment-14709 Molly Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:08:59 +0000 http://www.goodtherapy.org/custom/blog/?p=1475#comment-14709 It never crossed my mind that people would show sexual intimacy or interest in a therapist, but I guess there are certain individuals who do do this. Is is a good idea to set these individuals straight up front? I think there need to be boundaries as well. It never crossed my mind that people would show sexual intimacy or interest in a therapist, but I guess there are certain individuals who do do this. Is is a good idea to set these individuals straight up front? I think there need to be boundaries as well.

]]> By: Katie http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/sexual-boundaries/#comment-14645 Katie Sun, 18 Jan 2009 18:33:50 +0000 http://www.goodtherapy.org/custom/blog/?p=1475#comment-14645 I have to agree with Jeff... I just don't see this as normal, and although I'm not in the therapy field, I cannot imagine issues as these even being a problem with a therapist and a client. I have to agree with Jeff… I just don’t see this as normal, and although I’m not in the therapy field, I cannot imagine issues as these even being a problem with a therapist and a client.

]]> By: Jeff http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/sexual-boundaries/#comment-14611 Jeff Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:16:20 +0000 http://www.goodtherapy.org/custom/blog/?p=1475#comment-14611 I guess this is just a sad reality that speaks volumes about society today when these issues have to be clearly addressed or at least alluded to between therapist and patient. I cannot imagine acting out in that way or even have someone reciprocate those actions but I guess maybe I am in the minority. Perhaps there are those who cannot help themsleves but I do not think that is the norm. I think that stems from people cannot clearly see and abide by boundaries anymore which can make for some very complicated encounters. I guess this is just a sad reality that speaks volumes about society today when these issues have to be clearly addressed or at least alluded to between therapist and patient. I cannot imagine acting out in that way or even have someone reciprocate those actions but I guess maybe I am in the minority. Perhaps there are those who cannot help themsleves but I do not think that is the norm. I think that stems from people cannot clearly see and abide by boundaries anymore which can make for some very complicated encounters.

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