15 comments so far

• Therapist Dallas November 30th, 2007 at 8:12 AM #1

  Well, that certainly was interesting. Was this coming from a therapist or someone who is better about an alcoholic husband? Or, maybe both? It
  seems a bit harsh and personal, so I’m wondering if this isn’t a therapist trying to let some steam off in an acceptable way. She goes from being
  descriptive to being commanding. The last two sentences firmly tell someone what to do rather than allowing the person to come to a decision
  on a course of action on his or her own.

• Therapist Davidson November 30th, 2007 at 8:31 AM #2

  Hi Laura, I had a similar reaction to you about this article. Felt to me that perhaps the author is still hurt and frustrated from her own experience. I’m glad you commented and I hope there will be some discussion about this. An opportunity for the author to get some feedback and for members to discuss their reactions. So thanks for getting the conversation started.

• Mary Ellen November 30th, 2007 at 9:12 AM #3

  Actually, no, the article is unrelated to my marriage experience, but comes instead from clients, colleagues, and also from friends outside of my work, and various readings.

  It also fits in with two decades of experience in “women’s therapy” and its focus on unending process, rather than proactive change. Process does not equal product in our practice’s view.

  One can also, of course, further comment on the failure of 12 Step programs universally (we don’t think that “success” rates of

• Therapist Downers Grove December 3rd, 2007 at 8:13 AM #4

  Maybe the author is stating what others are afraid to. We all tend to tip-toe
  around recovering alcoholics. I think her point is that spouses need support, too. Just b/c someone is in treatment, it doesn’t mean that a spouse’s life has to continue to be as destructive as it was before the alcoholic entered therapy.

• Therapist East Ridge December 4th, 2007 at 7:38 AM #5

  I guess spouses need therapy in order to identify themselves as someone other than an alcoholic’s husband or wife. Rather than getting lost in
  someone else’s recovery, someone who possibly stripped away a good life from his or her spouse, it is more beneficial for the spouse to learn to stand
  on his or her own two feet. Perhaps this therapist is tired of seeing clients who feel guilty about reclaiming their right to a satisfactory life rather
  than standing in the shadows of their alcoholic spouses.

• Therapist Eugene December 5th, 2007 at 7:48 AM #6

  While Jeff and Dianne have some good points, it sounds to me like Laura may be more on the right track. Being a therapist doesn’t mean that you discount the person who has caused your client pain. However, maybe we are all missing the point. Maybe the point is that the American
  way of rehabilitating alcoholics breeds even more selfishness and single mindedness. Who knows? Maybe the author can clarify some of this for us.

• isabella mori December 6th, 2007 at 8:49 PM #7

  i know quite a few people who are part of 12-step programs. some of them seem to use them as a crutch, a simple substitution of one problem for another. it appears that this is the case for the person described in the article.

  i also know other people who seriously study the 12-step program, which has caused me to read the AA and other 12-step literature as well. in the later steps – which i am told some people never get to – it gets pretty clear that true recovery means repairing one’s relationships and doing one’s best to lead a normal life. neglecting one’s wife in favour of hanging out with one’s program buddies does not fit that bill.

  “You might want to start by taking equal time. For every meeting he attends, you go to a class, a workout, a bar, whatever appeals. If he objects, note that you are only “working your program.” Please create one more interesting than his.”

  that sounds a bit reactionary to me. of course the wife needs to live out her life, alcoholic husband or not, but i’m not quite sure how helpful it is to simply mirror him. that’s what teenagers do, not grown-up people. (not that we don’t all act like teenagers at times – or younger still – but let’s at least not encourage it!)

• Stephanie January 21st, 2008 at 12:37 PM #8

  Great perspective!!!

• hulu October 5th, 2008 at 5:37 PM #9

  see this is why AA doesn’t work always.

  :D

• ex-drinker November 12th, 2008 at 4:33 PM #10

  Hi,

  the only alcholic is one who is dependent on booze to physically servive day to day. A husband chooses to binge drink as an escape for whatever is troubling him in reality today but mainly it stems from a troubled past or past trauma in his life. The best thing a wife can do (and it sucks for her) is to not say anything about it, give him time. The wife needs to continue on with her life and kids if are present on activities that occur during husbands absence. The husand should come around and know that he is alone with his drinking problem and missing out on what is important in life…HIS FAMILY!!!

• Jason November 27th, 2008 at 5:49 AM #11

  The complaining wife doesn’t mention how much sobriety time her recovering husband has acquired. He didn’t become a lousy husband or a hopeless drunk in a day or a week or a month, and recovery from that decent into hell isn’t going to happen instantly either. The suggestion to find enjoyable activities of one’s own to pursue is a great one because it promotes healthy relationships to maintain some individuality… sadly what the author is implying here is that the motive for doing it is to arouse jealousy or envy in the alcoholic. If he really has a program of recovery (really just 12 easy steps to a more spiritual life), not only will he not be jealous or envious, he may just come to realize that the only reason he was in the relationship was to allow someone else to care for him and he doesn’t need it anymore.
  Alcoholism is a family disease and for every problem drinker or active addict there could be a hundred people who are affected by it. Just ask the spouse of anyone with a chronic disease how much it can impact their lives, not just the sufferers. When something consumes so much of ones time, lifestyle, and mental energy, and then that thing goes away, what’s left to fill the void? It’s every humans responsibility to fill their own void, not their partners. Maybe in addition to the suggestion to get well themselves with outside activities, a nudge towards Al-Anon would be a more professionally responsible response instead of encouraging more threats and ultimatums.

• Alice Petty-Hannum November 29th, 2008 at 4:54 PM #12

  I also felt that this article was reactionary and, perhaps, accurately described the bitterness that some wives or partners may feel by the time their partner becomes involved in a 12 step program. As someone who works with recovering addicts and their families but is not in recovery myself, I feel that this article spells out the fears of many family members. I feel that family members need to have their resentments and fear normalized but that they need to be empowered to take charge of their own lives and stop fearing expressing themselves to their partners as the family enters recovery.

  What is described is a crazy making experience in which the partner is no longer drinking but all other behaviors look and feel the same to the spouse. This is not true recovery, but may be common in early recovery while someone gets themselves familiar with the program. As has been previously said, as someone works the steps they should start to focus on relationships and the intimate connections in their life. However, someone with the pattern described in this article either has not reached that point, is not truly working a recovery program, or has so much wreckage in their relationship that they are not trying to repair it (perhaps a stuck place in their recovery).

  I absolutely agree that the spouse needs to practice self care and to reconstruct their own life so that it is fulfilling. This is one of the primary issues in an addictive subsystem. EVERYONE has modified their behavior and expectations around the addicted person when they were in active addiction. While the spouse taking equal time is an excellent way to work self care into her life, I question the motivation in this case. It seems rather passive aggressive instead of truly motivated by the need to care for the self. I would prefer framing this move as self care and encouraging the processing of resentments and new ways of communicating with the addicted person to let them know how unsatisfactory the way they are constructing their recovery program is for their partner. Many men who have spent years in alcoholic addiction also don’t really know how to create intimacy. Couples counseling has been extremely important for many long term relationships. There is so much resentment and shame that it can feel impossible to overcome habitual barriers to intimacy.

  It is my hope that therapists will educate clients about balancing their recovery rather than letting it become a substitute addiction. By reframing our concerns this way we can work with and supplement an alcoholic’s chosen recovery program rather than undermining it.

• geo mer December 2nd, 2008 at 11:31 AM #13

  I’d like to read some comments on “skip-generation-alcoholism” if lifestyle/lifespan when using/abusing drugs/alc usually same as grandparent/primary alcoholic. The “grandchildren” now in 30’s and both had 4th dui.s. thank you

• Mike April 21st, 2009 at 6:54 AM #14

  I’m an ex alcohol abuser. I drank from the age of 14 until I was 48. I tried A.A. at the age of 20 and it never worked, 11 month and I was drinking again. Tried it 3 other times after that with 2 year sobriety, 6 month sobriety and finally 4 months sobriety which is when I saw the harm A.A. was doing to me and my family. I left the program and quite on my own. I educated myself on the real truth behind substance abuse, Domestic Violence (a big one for me) and it’s affects on its victims. Personally, I drank to become oblivious to reality. I was masking the pain of past abuse. I had poor coping abilities and I was immature, insecure, and irresponsible, had no self worth or self esteem and was suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. None of which A.A. ever looks at, in fact A.A. and all its cult driven misinformation contributed to making things worse.
  I love the part of the story where the lady said “But you dare not complain lest you send him back to actively drinking again. He’s still captive to alcohol and you’re still being blackmailed into keeping quiet about it.” This comes from the chapter “To the Wives in the “Big Book” of A.A. If you read it and remember that Bill Wilson wrote that chapter because he felt his wife Lois was incapable of doing it “Right” You begin to see the truth. Every thin Bill W. describes in the chapter are the antics of Bill when he was drunk and sober. This chapter was designed to blame the wives and children and allow the drunk to never have to become responsible for his actions. The whole chapter is despicable and is a complete and total denial of the existence of Domestic Abuse. When you read it keep in mind that Bill Wilson was a liar, a thief, he stole money from A.A., Stole the rights to the Big Book (it had at least 35 authors but Bill claimed he wrote it), he was a womanizer, had numerous affairs, and as he got older A.A. had to form a founders watch to get younger women away from him that caught his eye at A.A. functions. At one time he told Horace Crystal, he was completing the work that Christ didn’t finish, & according to Horace he said he was a reincarnation of Christ. He was Grandiose and seen as a charismatic leader. The truth is, Bill Wilson was a sociopath and sociopaths make great “CULT” leaders. Bill Wilson’s Ultimate goal was the creation of willing victims; a goal of enslavement of his victims; and a desire to be the ruler with absolute power over every aspect of his victim’s lives.
  This was Bills exact description of how alcoholic wives are: “We wives found that, like everybody else, we were afflicted with pride, self-pity, vanity, and all the things that go to make-up the self-centered person; and we were not above selfishness or dishonesty.” Then he goes on to say: “Some of the snags you will encounter are irritation, hurt feelings and resentments. Your husband will be unreasonable and you will want to criticize. These family distentions are very dangerous, especially to your husband. Never forget that resentment is a deadly hazard to an alcoholic.” (aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt8.pdf To the wives).
  This chapter was great therapy for me, I realizes that I needed to grow-up, become responsible, accept the blame for my substance abuse and admit to my family that I was the cause of the problems, not them, not alcohol, not some nonexistent disease, Me! Then I had to accept that recovery is not a life time event, but Growing-up is. Then and only then was I able to move on with my life and become a productive member of my family and society.
  If you are a substance abuser and you want to do something for 90 days, try doing it with your wife or family instead of going to 90 meeting and see how that works out for you.
  Advocating for a world without 12-stepism.

• Lawyer Pete August 28th, 2009 at 9:42 PM #15

  No doubt about it, alcoholics are a fucked-up bunch. That’s why they are in AA. Nothing else could help them, so two of them got together to see if they could help each other. And so they did help each other. Since AA was formed in the 1930s, millions of men and women have found a way to quit drinking and live sober lives.

  Quitting drinking didn’t mean their problems ended, or that they weren’t fucked up in other ways, but they found a way to live a life without alcohol—that was, and still is, the purpose of AA.

  Here are the points that Mary Ellen misses:

  1. Female alcoholics–some even female spouses!–attend AA meetings.

  2. AA meetings focus on the problem at hand–how to live without alcohol. No doubt Mary Ellen deals with her clients’ problem at hand.

  Moreover, Mary Ellen seems to have a vague, puerile idea of AA in general and what the purpose of AA is in specific. Indeed, she exhibits a monolithic, misinformed view of AA and offers nothing of substance as a replacement (”I’ll ‘work my program also” notwithstanding’”). Furthermore, she ignores a psychological concept that she should have been aware of since her undergraduate days of Biology 101: homeostasis. To wit: If one spouse has been drinking for a considerable time, the nonalcoholic spouse has adapted to the other spouse and his or her behavior. That behavior is the static condition that changes when the alcoholic spouse becomes sober. It’s natural for the nonalcoholic spouse to experience a change that probably feels uncomfortable. But if the alcoholic spouse remains sober, the nonalcoholic spouse will adapt to that and a new static condition will form, one that doesn’t include alcohol consumption (and all the problems that come with that) as an element of the relationship. Nothing further in the relationship is guaranteed, but the relationship no longer includes an alcoholic spouse.

  Mary Ellen, as a putative therapist, should know her DSM IV. In the DSM IV, alcoholism is a disease (303.90), as are all the alcohol-related disorders. Perhaps Mary Ellen turns away such potential clients with alcohol-related diseases. That would be consistent with her editorial. Good for you, Mary Ellen!

  But it’s Mary Ellen’s subtext that’s more troubling. Her subtext is that the nonalcoholic spouse would like to have back the alcoholic spouse that is drinking. Even thought “life is certainly calmer,” and certain spouses are “truly glad that he isn’t drinking,” and that they “don’t miss the late night worrying, the calls for bail or a ride home,” or “wondering about our debts, credit rating, or whether he’s going to get fired,” the subtext complaint is that the nonalcoholic misses the active drinker. So Mary Ellen’s clients, such as she advises them, would like to have back the late-night drinker, the drinker who needs bail or a ride home, and so on and so on.” Hmmm . . . do I smell some aggravated codependency? Or do I smell a therapist who just wants to bill hours? Yes, j’accuse Mademoiselle of an ethical violation. Doesn’t matter, though—both spouses can find a new homeostasis, and this is what Mary Ellen misses.

  Another of Mary Ellens’s subtexts is that it’s the husband that goes to AA and not the wife. As I stated above, there are plenty of female spouses that attend AA meetings.

  Mary Ellen thinks that AA members thrust the responsibility for an AA member’s sobriety upon the spouse, as if a spouse—or anyone—could somehow compromise a recovering alcoholic’s recovery. Remember, as Mary Ellen has told us, alcoholics are all about themselves (which is actually true, and which, ironically, aids their recovery).

  Another of Mary Ellen’s texts (forget subtexts) is that the recovering alcoholic has such a relationship with alcohol that it is okay that the nonalcoholic spouse spend time with another nonalcoholic. Such other nonalcoholic, by definition and according to Mary Ellen, is capable of “real intimacy.”

  Geez, if Mary Ellen were in my town, Portland, Oregon, and someone came to me asking for a therapist, I’d say, “Find a therapist with an open mind, and certainly not Mary Ellen.”

  Mary Ellen then quotes someone eponymously: “Don’t complain or you’ll be responsible for him relapsing,” and then cites Dear Abby to “the minister” for saying this. I don’t know how to capture how to say that Mary Ellen lacks any authority for this assertion, so I’ll just say it: “Mary Ellen, you’re quoting Dear Abby and “the minister” to support your proposition? You can’t find better authority?

  I’m tired. I can’t get through the rest of Mary Ellen’s strained discourse. I don’t know why she spent the time writing it. There’s so little benefit in it, so little life, yet she thought there was, such that she copyrighted it. Okay, Mary Ellen, you’ve copyrighted it. I won’t plagiarize.

  Just to clean up the edges of Mary Ellen’s wrongheaded discourse on what she thinks AA meetings are about: 1) AA meeting are not meetings with drinking buddies. AA meetings, by definition, are meetings with people who have stopped drinking. Most members of AA have left their drinking buddies at the bar. AA members do not drink together. 2) AA meetings are a fellowship of people who have decided that drinking alcohol is not the way they want to live.

  In summary, don’t trust Mary Ellen with respect to alcohol dependency. She doesn’t know what she’s writing about, and couldn’t properly articulate her opinions with respect to alcohol dependency in any case.

  If you think you are dependent on alcohol—or some other drug—Google [your city], and then “Alcoholics Anonymous.” There you find some people who understand you, with whom you can meet and talk (if you like).

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